He’s An Apathist
I had the following conversation with a certain non-religious someone who wishes to remain anonymous:
Mr. Anonymous: So do you think I’m a Humanist?
AgnosticMom: I don’t know. Are you?
Mr. Anonymous: I don’t know.
AgnosticMom: Do you even call yourself Agnostic or Atheist?
Mr. Anonymous: Not really. Just . . . Nothing.
AgnosticMom: If somebody asked you if you believe in God, what would you say?
Mr. Anonymous: I’d say, “I don’t care.” I’m apathetic. That’s it! I’m an Apathist.
Let’s see, we’ve got Agnostics, Atheists, Freethinkers, Brights, Humanists, and probably a dozen more names. What’s another one to add to the scene to give distinction to our minute differences?
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February 23rd, 2006 @ 10:51 am
Hey,
You mentioned one name I hadn’t come across – Brights? I suppose that there are some distinctions worthy of note, but, ultimately, they aren’t really important.
The attitude of your “Apathist” is significant, though. I have an older brother who more or less fits that description. Essentially, he has no particular opinion regarding his religious leanings. If pressed, he would likely say, that, yeah, he believes in god, more or less. I guess there are people for whom the issue of god and religious beliefs are just not important. Unfortunately, in my brother’s case, he doesn’t seem to have much of an interest or passion for anything. Beyond the occasional good meal and an infrequent visit with his only grand child, he has little interest in anything that I can determine. I find that a little sad. But, it’s his life.
Later,
TLS
February 23rd, 2006 @ 11:34 am
Usually I tell people firstly I’m an atheist but if they care to listen I say agnostic atheist. I don’t know if there is a god but I see no reason for god to exist so I don’t believe in any gods. I’ve heard it go on within freethinker circles too. An agnostic is someone who won’t admit they aren’t an atheist…yet. But that is just semantics to me. If naturalist had a better connotation and association I’d call myself that but atheist gets the point across quicker.
February 23rd, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
There are a lot of gods . Thousands of them, but they exist only in the minds of the people who created them for the purpose of existance . I , like the person who launched the criticism in the e-zine was curious as to why Noell would refer to herself as agnostic when she clearly does battle with her mom regarding existance . At the same time, I realize that that is probably why this forum exists . I used this quote before but now that it’s come up again perhaps it will suffice : ” How does a common cold improve our fitness? Ans. It doesn’t , Rather , for it to survive it needs a fresh set of willing hosts ( immune weaknesses ) The only priority for the cold is that it enters your system and strenghens. We are a vessel for its transmission that is all we are used for. Religion spreads not because it makes us stronger , faster , or more cohesive and moral, (its track record is mixed )It spreads because it hijacks us for its own propagation . Keep reading folks . The truth is out there just stay within the parameters of reality. Don’t be a slave to the supernatural and made up gods , ghosts and spirits . Keep your mind open
February 23rd, 2006 @ 1:48 pm
Terry-I’m just learning more about Brights, and our reder Hifi is an official member I think. He gave me a more accurate understanding of what it is: Turns out the name came as an effort to unify all of us “-ists” into one big unified group, regardless of our differences. The word, “bright” was specifically chosen as a kind of PR thing in an effort to enhance our image as something positive instead of negative. There was such a backlash from a majority of “-ists” who didn’t like it, that the campaign doesn’t seem to have succeeded (so far) in unifying us under an all-encompassing name. Instead it just appears to be another distinction.
As for the Mr. Anonymous Apathist: HIS apathy sits first on the foundation that he could never find it within him to buy into all the mystical aspects of religion. He just wants to enjoy his life.
February 23rd, 2006 @ 2:13 pm
TXAthiest- How funny. I explain it the opposite of you. I say, “I’m agnostic, but I really don’t believe in God.” If they press further my explanation is: “I don’t deny there is a possibility of a god’s existence. I cannot believe in a god who condemns people to hell. I wouldn’t worship that god if he existed. And if all God is is a Prime Mover that got the ball rolling, what does he have to do with me? What does that change things?”
Fran- I understand the desire to specify our philosophies, but ultimately I think agree with TXAthiest that it is semantics. I don’t see the big deal whether I call myself atheist or agnostic. In fact it seems laughable to me that the HNN letter writer was so worked up about a person’s choice to use that word. I identify with both terms. I used to call myself atheist. But since the whole world seems to be wired to believe in gods, at some point it began to seem more intellectually honest to say agnostic. But then sometimes not. Like I said, I don’t see what the big deal is.
And I will admit, “AgnosticMom” is partial PR. My purpose for this blog is to bring together parents who want to raise families without religion. Some of them may be Deists or liberal Christians. Some are only barely agnostic, swinging back and forth into and out of Deism. Some are hard Atheists. For the purposes of my blog, “Agnostic” is more approachable.
Another reason: unlike most people here, I began raising my children with a belief in Jesus and since that was a security blanket to them and they were young, I wasn’t about to hit them over the heads with sudden atheism. For my kids it has been a gradual moving away. Trinity (age 6) says Jesus is God. Blake (age
is now saying Jesus is probably God but nobody really knows. For their sakes, our family is agnostic. And we also believe in Santa. They’re smart. They’ll get it by the time they need to.
As for some atheists thinking I’m taking the easy road and sitting on the fence: I am not afraid to say what I think. I don’t like to tell other people what to do or think. But I am just as hard-nosed as any other atheist once I’ve made my decision!
One more question, Fran: You mentioned that the track record for the benefits of religion are mixed. I have only ever heard positive results for religion. Can you point me to some of these studies?
February 23rd, 2006 @ 8:08 pm
I just wanted to add something about how my wife and I approached the subject of god and religion with our kids. Actually, we didn’t. As I may have stated, my wife is of an Italian catholic family. They were only nominally active, not overly devout. Joan, my wife, is more truly an agnostic; not sure of just which side of the fence she is on. She understands how I feel, and I respect where she is at. Consequently, we didn’t feel comfortable pushing the kids one way or the other. Over the years we attended a variety of catholic masses for weddings, the occasional baptism, and, eventually, a number of funerals. Both of our boys attended a catholic high school. We have let them sort it out on their own. They knew where both Jo and I stood.
What I find repugnant about most religions is that they begin the “brainwashing” almost from birth. They are fearful that if they don’t indoctrinate their children early and often, they will fall under satan’s evil spell. They have no faith in their kids ability to choose.
Above, you wonder at there being any “negatives” regarding religion.I don’t know if there are any “studies” to site regarding negative influences of religion, but history is littered with the bones of those who have died in the name of one god or another. The crusades brought on the death of millions of both christians and non-christians. Much of the unrest we are experiencing in the world today is owing to the rantings of religious fundamentalists. Even klanners evoke the name of god to justify their hate.
While people of faith do perform humane works through their respective church organizations, it is ultimately the people who do the job, not the church. We are certainly capable of compassion and caring for others without religion. Religion is, by its very nature, exclusionary. It naturally pits one group against another. Ecumenical inclusion can only be allowed to go so far. You are either a methodist (or a catholic, or, whatever) or your not. If you’re not in our group, you will not be able to catch a ride on the paradise express.
TLS
February 23rd, 2006 @ 10:54 pm
I am not sure what the sources of those studies are, who backed them. I’ve heard of some of them. I think there is even a better case for greater longevity for people who remain mentally and physically active.
As I said, my kids went to a catholic high school. Overall, drugs were not a serious problem during the 6 years we had one or both of our boys enrolled there. However, I was appalled at how many parents enabled or at least winked at alcohol use by their kids. On one occasion several members of the football team and several cheer leaders were discovered to have taken part in a serious drinking party at a motel in southern Indiana. It was even attended by some parents and assistant coaches. As football is king at Roncalli High School, they were all let off with only a reprimand. Gotta win state, don’t you know? (Which they have done something like 8 times over the last 12 or 13 years.)
I have no memory of our kids asking about church or god. We just didn’t make much of it. Perhaps we were guilty of being “apathists.” As I said, regular church attendance was not the rule in my wife’s family. We generally went only for family events. Your situation is markedly different in that you made a dramatic change which I’m sure adds to your dilemma. Just take it a day at a time. Eventually, as your kids mature, they will likely be better equipped to make an informed decision about god, owing, at least in part, to your efforts. (As informed as it can be, anyway.)
The only period I attended church with any regularity was while I was in high school. I went more for social reasons than religious. I sang in the choir at a small presbyterian church. I started dating a girl who attended another presbyterian church. I sang in that choir, too. What we won’t do for love?
TLS
February 23rd, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
Hey Noell, I’m curious, did your parents tell you there was a Santa? I remember my history teacher in high school (Mr Gifford) was a born-again and he told our class that he refused to lie to his kids and tell them Santa was real because they wouldn’t believe him about Jesus. I thought that was a bummer. But then I also wondered sometimes if he was just telling us stuff to get us to argue with him!
February 24th, 2006 @ 8:11 am
God and Santa fall into the same category. If fundamentalists begin to feel they are losing the grip on religion , there will be a civil war in this country. Bottom line , like the Taliban had in Afghanistan , Christian fundamentalists have the same hold on america . The minute they feel it slipping away and people begin straying from the ranks you can bet there will be an all out war here too. The difference between the U.S. and Iraq is that we have freedom of religion and separation of church and state.but the lines are growing thinner. Don’t let them take it away from us. Don’t let them take it away…..
February 24th, 2006 @ 8:44 am
As for studies, I have heard (rumors I am inclined to believe) that Utah has the highest rate of Prozac users. It would be interesting to look into these types of studies.
Petunia-Yes, we grew up with Santa. Learning reality about him did not effect my religious belief. But I do think it will have an affect with my children since I speak with them about religious doctrine in terms of “stories” instead of reality. Blake only just learned about Santa not being real this year. At the same time he is moving toward a more agnostic stance regarding life after death and God.
BTW, I don’t know how that happy face intruded itself into my comment above. It’s supposed to say “age 8″.
February 24th, 2006 @ 9:47 am
My first post on your blog; I’ve been reading for a week after finding you from HNN.
I grew up in a Methodist household but drifted away at college and after. Have two kids, 18 & 23, raised with NO church attendance, no baptism, nothing. We’ve attended a church wedding (my sister in law is Catholic) and a few Christmas services when my oldest was young, but that’s it.
We don’t believe in the indoctrination of religion, and have raised our kids to think for themselves. I know they’re caring and helpful kids and will choose the right path.
I’m a volunteer at school and various organizations that help others (non religion based).
If you care about other people and lead your life with that philosophy, isn’t that enough? I really don’t understand the big push to be “saved.” We even muddled through a few years of Boy Scouts with each boy…
February 24th, 2006 @ 9:59 am
I’ve heard that Utah has the highest Prozac use and also the highest bankruptcy declaration rates also. I’m sure if you go to http://www.exmormon.org they will be happy to confirm or provide a source. Those guys there are great.
February 24th, 2006 @ 10:16 am
Interesting comments on labels. I’m either atheist or agnostic now but was firmly atheist from my last year of high school through the next decade or so. I come from a family of fundamentalists and avoided using the “atheist” label for a long time because I realized that although it meant one thing to me, it carried different meanings to my assorted relatives.
I have a more positive view of religion than most atheists but religion was ultimately something I gave about zero thought to (until I had my own child and became worried about the fundie influence on him from the rest of the family). I had decided I didn’t believe in god(s) so I just went about living my life without thinking about things I didn’t believe in.
But to my relatives, identifying myself as an atheist means I must spend a lot of time “denying God,” that I must support the American Atheist Association and its agenda in the same way that they support their churches, and that I must seek to congregate with other atheists to support me in my beliefs the way they congregate with other fundies. None of those things is true about me but there’s no convincing the family. I don’t think devoutly Christian people can conceive of atheism as anything but its own religion…
Which is a long-winded way of saying I haven’t found labels helpful to me.
February 24th, 2006 @ 12:30 pm
At Noell’s request, I’ve adopted the “Gregg100″ simply to differentiate myself from the several other “Gregs” in this blog.
A comment on Santa Claus. My 10 year old granddaughter, a bright, happy, soccer-playing young girl, was teased by her friends for believing in Santa Claus and defended her position vigorously because her parents had told her he was real when she was young. This year her mother finally told her it was a myth and the reaction was not good. I quote, “Do you mean I have been making a fool of myself with my friends because you lied to me all these years?”
She got over it, of course, but my point is that there was no need for that to have ever occurred. Santa could have been presented as a very fun story from long ago at the beginning with no problem. Selected gifts under the Christmas tree could have been referred to as “Santa Gifts” and Mom’s integrity would have been preserved.
February 24th, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Just a note to all of you who are on the fence , informed choice , informed choice , informed choice – c’mon folks, that’s what democracy and freedom is supposed to be about,and if your religion can’t compete in the open marketplace of ideas, if you have to hide the alternatives from your children, then your religion doesn’t deserve to survive
February 24th, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
Jen,
I am in a very similar situation to yours. My husband and I have been atheists since before we met and our families didn’t seem to have a problem with that until we had kids. Now, they are really trying to “convert” us and are “very concerned” about our children. My mother in law called my husband at work one evening when she was watching the kids because my son did not want to pray with them and she thought that was very strange. I’m not sure why they are so surprised that we are not raising our children with religion because they’ve known that we do not believe in god.
I can totally relate to you regarding the negative perception our families have about atheism. At this point, we are agnostic to them because like Noell said the word agnostic is more approachable for people than atheist. I also tell them I am a humanist, but have also found that they have a negative perception of that as well. More than anything, my husband and I choose our labels carefully to keep peace in the family. Labels are not as important to me as they are to our families.
February 25th, 2006 @ 6:19 am
I think that part of the problem , at least for the baby boomers, is that in the cold war era the word athiest was associated with “communism” . Russia was a communist state and no religion was practiced so the Roman Catholic church played it up bigtime and demonstrated that the threat of communism was real and that it would steal your religion from you . It was just another fear in leadership ploy in defense of religious fantasy. Communication was minimal and the church could play just about anything they wanted to with it because so many people were influenced by them .
February 25th, 2006 @ 6:45 am
That’s interesting Fran. It makes a lot of sense.
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