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April 1st, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
I’m curious to how they’ll teach it. There’s a lot of good that the bible teaches but are the students gonna be taught the bad as well? Are the student’s gonna be allowed to question the historical accuracy of the bible without backlash by those that believe in it literally? It’d be nice to peek into the future and know what the consequences are. I’m for the bible to be taught in schools. But not the way I was taught it in Saturday morning bible school. I don’t understand why its such a taboo to talk about creation in school in the first place. If I was allowed to question the bible at an earlier age I’d probably be agnostic much earlier too. I’ll never know I guess. But better now than never.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 7:19 am
I think that any humanist who lives in Georgia should demand equal time in this endeavor . Secular Humanists , Bhuddists , Hindus , Jews , etc should all design courses to be taught as electives in the Georgia Public School system . If they are denied a law suit would shut this whole debacle down. If there are any Humanist groups who’d like to file in conjunction with the ACLU I would be happy to contribute to cause . Teaching supernaturalism is a waste of time and taxpayer’s money. Take me back to Kansas please Auntie Em
April 2nd, 2006 @ 7:58 am
Too bad the education system isn’t a whole lot better in Kansas! They have their own problems. It’s pretty bad.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 8:27 am
There are 2 things that come to mind from my youth in this regard.
I went to a public grade school in Indianapolis back in the 1950s. For 2 or 3 of those years my class (and presumably others) were taken to the presbyterian church adjacent to the school once a week for a religious class. As it happened, that was also the church my family more or less attended. I thought it was cool. However, I dimly remember that there were a couple of kids whose parents objected to this practice. I believe they were catholics. Of course, this made their kids targets. I remember my mother saying in this regard that if those parents didn’t like it, they should send their kids to catholic school. Of course, that is a specious argument. Then as now, public schools should NOT be providing religious training of any kind. For any government entity to mandate bible instruction in its public schools ignores this nation’s diversity, and is an insult to people of non-christian traditions, let alone non-believers. It is sad to be once again reminded that many of our politicians at all levels of government are, essentially narrow minded, ignorant sycophants.
I also remember while attending Indiana University in the early 1970s being in a freshmen level lit class wherein we were obliged to study portions of the King James bible as literature. At that time I had only recently adorned myself in the athiest’s cloak. (How’s that for a turn of phrase, huh?) At first I was taken aback that I would be expected to study the bible in a state university. Happily, however, the professor, Dr. Wertheim, who was of jewish heritage was quick to point out to the class that no religious or moral lessens would be brought to bear on us. We were simply studying the story telling traditions of other cultures which was consistent with other material we were to read. In fact, Dr. Wertheim was the first person in my experience who pointed out some of the contradictions and inconsistencies in the christian bible. While I never discovered whether he was or was not a believer, I suspect he was not. He took some joy in enlightening us about the angry, vengeful, non-forgiving old testament god, and other issues which did not correlate to modern teachings of the supposed kinder and gentler benevolent god who loved us all – sinner and saint alike. He suggested that it was all a load of, well -doodoo.
It can be instructive to study the bible, but not as it is intended by the Georgia legislature.
TLS
April 2nd, 2006 @ 9:14 am
I agree with Fran, that there should be “equal timeâ€. Also, it will all depend on who is teaching this? What kind of format will they be fallowing ? Noell, please post any articles that may help answer those questions.
One hopeful thing, the article did say it is offered as an elective course……………
April 2nd, 2006 @ 10:02 am
Rodolpho and Christy–Democrats introduced this law, and Republicans took it over, writing into it that the Bible itself would be the primary text for each class. I think I read somewhere that no outside sources or commentary can be used. In some ways, that may be good, but I don’t know how you can give a proper assessment of the text without another source that explains the history, cutlure, and background of the writers.
For example, the currently used versions of the Gospels claim writers that the earliest versions didn’t claim. They also were almost positively written later than the deaths of the supposed authors. I doubt they will be teaching that though. And you sure wouldn’t figure it out just by using the Bible.
More specifics on what is and isn’t allowed:
I had at least one teacher, if not more, in Kansas that testified to the class (casually)about Jesus. If that happened in a completely non-rlated class subject, I don’t have high hopes that believing teachers will be able to stay completely objective.
In addition, even if the teachers don’t spread their faith, students (rightfully) are legally allowed to express their own religious views. These courses can turn into an evangelical tool just by having enthustiastic students in the class.
That being said, I had a great Humanities class in high school that studied world religion, including some of the Bible. I remember my teaching saying how absurd it is to think that the children of Adam and Eve all married each other and had children together without serious problems. Of course, I had a very non-scientific retort that made no sense to anyone but myself and the religious.
I read on a blog somewhere that one of the Georgia lawmakers said in an interview something about how this law is so important because we need to increase faith. The blogger didn’t document any source for it, though, and I haven’t been able to find it myself.
We need to keep our eyes on this situation. I think Hifi’s right. We’re losing ground in a Christian fight to take over the country and we don’t have a battle plan.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 10:06 am
I would add that from the athiest perspective, “equal time” is no less objectionable. It is simply not the job of our public education system to involve itself in religious instruction of any kind. As religion has historically been and continues to be an integral part of our day to day lives, the role it plays in history and current affairs should be included in history/social studies classes, but not as any kind of indoctrinal lessons.
Civil and moral behavior standards can be taught without religious connotation. Parents are at liberty to indoctrinate their off spring in all manner of religious activity at times other than the 6 or so hours a day they spend in the classroom. And, of course, if they have the means, parents are also at liberty to send their progeny off to private, religious schools.
The drive toward religious teaching in public schools is promulgated by parent’s fear that the efforts to brainwash their kids will be threatened if the little ones were to be exposed (horror of horrors!) to the secular world. Heaven forbid!
TLS
April 2nd, 2006 @ 10:46 am
Wow, Fran just made an offer to help. She said,
“If there are any Humanist groups who’d like to file in conjunction with the ACLU I would be happy to contribute to the cause.”
I am not aware of any AgnosticMom readers from Georgia. Is there anyone out there? If so, speak up! We can help you locate local humanist organizations out there and the ACLU. You can get involved and be the lifeline from them to AgnosticMom. I’ll post updates about your efforts.
Please tell us if a Georgian is out there and I’ll get in contact with you and hook you up with Fran and local groups.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 11:12 am
I agree it would be difficult for a teacher to stay objective especially if they are a believer. But I need to know more on how they’re gonna teach it. I think a better idea is to devote a whole school year on evolution/creation. One semester would be on creation and the other half on evolution. The reason I don’t remember much about it in school was because it was only like a day or two lecture. Why so little emphasis on such an important topic? So sad. We should start this instruction early like in the 5th grade. Give the kids all the facts in an objective manner and then let them decide for themselves. The earlier they think critically the better. Why wait? Life’s short.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
Now that you’ve tossed this live grenade into the conference room … OK, I don’t think we are being “Biblephobic†if we object to the Bible being singled out for study in a public high school. Most states that I surveyed have an approach that seems more reasonable and appropriate if religion is to be a subject in any high school. As an example, in a high school in Massachusetts the core (required) World History class in 9th grade is a one semester class that begins with a comparative study of world religions and traces the growth of nation states in Europe through the French Revolution. Topics include Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the nation states, absolutism, the English Civil War, the Enlightenment and the French Revolution.
If we look at the state mandated standards for public high schools we can get a pretty good overview of the state perspective on expectation for students upon graduation. Surprisingly, it is almost impossible to get specific high shcool curriculums. If we look specifically at Georgia, the subject of the post, it is interesting to see what they require in the core science curriculum for graduation. (http://www.georgiastandards.org/science.aspx). I think any student that achieves that standard (coded SB4 in their system) has enough background in science as well as biology in general and genetics/biochemistry in particular to be able to assess the validity of concepts such as evolution even though I never saw the word in the standards.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
Christy just put forth an idea as well. Perhaps an addendum could be placed in the bill that would cancel it out completely . Namely, all religions must be taught in this curriculum so that students could get a well rounded education and an introduction to spiritual and secular movements . Equal time would let them choose for themselves . Now that would be a well rounded education.I’m a he by the way.
April 2nd, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
Oops, sorry, Fran. What can I say?
April 3rd, 2006 @ 8:19 am
The more education a person has about biblical history/authenticity the weaker that person’s faith becomes in absolutes. I used to have breakfast with the pastor of my (then) church – and he would often tell me how many people loose their faith in seminary, but by that time they are committed to teaching it – so they go forth to run churches as tortured doubters, and (to their own way of thinking) outright liars. I suspect that was the case of my own pastor about a good many issues in his faith – though I was always shy about asking direct questions about it.
If the classes actually taught about the Bible – I can’t help but wonder if a similar effect would be felt by the students.
However, going by these comments the students are to be taught the Bible itself (and the King James version?!) – not about the Bible? This is somehow to happen objectively, and without reference to Jesus or other religious leaders? Isn’t this flat out impossible?
Equal time for other faiths seems, on its face, like a good idea – - but I don’t see how its possible. A comparative religion class would not cover more than the broadest basics – and separate classes for each other belief in no way insures that they will have people attending them (thus exposing them to being dropped from the curriculum).
Speaking out with a perspective other than what the teacher is offering as ‘truth’ could very well cost the student a good grade – and adhering to the teachers POV for a better grade must surely be considered a form of coercion.
I think we are dealing with a sticky wicket.
Whatever happened to science, english, and math?
April 3rd, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
In California, this would never be allowed. Instructional material in public schools, elective or not, are bound by a wonderful document, Standards for Evaluating Instructional Materials for Social Content
The subsection on religion states:
Purpose. The standards enable all students to become aware and accepting of religious diversity while being allowed to remain secure in any religious beliefs they may already have.
Method. The standards will be achieved by depicting, when appropriate, the diversity of religious beliefs held in the United States and California, as well as in other societies, without displaying bias toward or prejudice against any of those beliefs or religious beliefs in general.
Applicability of Standards. The standards are derived to a degree from the United States and the California constitutions and relate closely to the requirements concerning the portrayal of cultural diversity. Compliance is required.
1. Adverse reflection. No religious belief or practice may be held up to ridicule and no religious group may be portrayed as inferior.
2. Indoctrination. Any explanation or description of a religious belief or practice should be presented in a manner that does not encourage or discourage belief or indoctrinate the student in any particular religious belief.
3. Diversity. When religion is discussed or depicted, portrayals of contemporary American society should reflect religious diversity.
If you live in any other state, you should research existing laws and standards, including the state code of education and supplementary standards guidelines. If there are diversity requirements, try to leverage them, if there aren’t pressure your state board of education to add explicit protections like this.
One note: sadly the legislature can pass specific laws, like the section in the California Code of Education which states that the Pledge of Allegiance “shall satisfy the requirement” of a daily patriotic activity. Even if it is in flagrant contradiction to another law, the state schools can’t argue or reverse it, it’s got to go to court.
See: California: Pledge Optional
April 5th, 2006 @ 11:00 am
More legislative intent to strengthen religion. Again, we have to ask, why is keeping god in the Pledge of Allegiance their number one priority. What do fundamentalists know that we are missing?
Laramie County GOP adopts platform
CHEYENNE AP) — Laramie County Republicans adopted a platform that called for students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and be allowed to pray in schools.
Also, the platform opposed enacting special laws against so-called “hate crimes,” or crimes motivated by a person’s race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.
The platform was adopted Saturday. It also:
–Urged making English the national language and official language of the state, and closing U.S. borders to illegal crossings.
–Called on the Legislature to define marriage as the union of only a man and woman, and to deny recognition of civil unions.
April 7th, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
There is an antagonizing segment to every population. Realistically , religion is in the midst of a mass disarmament and they are struggling to make any offensive headway they can. They are losers of the last ten lawsuits regarding the practice of supernaturalism and hocus pocus and they are desperate . They want to test out the latest installation of supremies with the hopes they will sidestep the actual law and give them a victory of some kind , any kind. Things keep getting in their way, items like the “Gospel of Judas ” ” The DeVinci Code ” Intelligent Design ” The reality of “Jesus is NO GOD ” keeps hitting them square in the eyes. All they need to do is look for the truth scientifically. It’s so sad that they continue use such ignorance to deny people basic rights .
March 10th, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
I am in Georgia, and I think it’s fine for the Bible to be taught in schools as an elective course. I wish that I was passionate about Christianity. I am happy for all of the Christians, because they have faith, and I don’t want to take from them something that I do no possess. With that said, does anyone know of any Agnostic churches near Statesboro Georgia?
July 21st, 2008 @ 6:06 pm
How can one teach the history of a nation without the faith of that nation? For instance, how can one learn of the development of the Church state in England without referencing the Bible, specifically the KJV with all its marvelous language and arrogant flaws? How can one study the development of law without the Code of Hammurabi, the Ten Commandments, and so on? These are part of the Western tradition. I do not object to Eastern traditions, but keep them where they belong. This is America and American history has a great deal in it that involves the faith of the people who settled the land, and that includes the Bible. Not teaching it in context is like not teaching how to tie a knot in a mountain climbing class.