23 Comments »

1. TXatheist:
   April 13th, 2006 @ 8:37 am

   Sorry,
   but as a irregular contributor I thought you might be interested. If not, I apologize. It’s a parody of the war on xmas idea.
   http://www.waroneaster.org

2. Rodolfo:
   April 13th, 2006 @ 1:13 pm

   I understand its a parody and I can pretty much laugh at anything but calling a war on easter is really silly. I’d like to believe that most of us here rely on reason and critical thinking first before any kind of declaration for war. War is a symbol of failure on both sides and to declare war on drugs, poverty, easter, christmas, or even Christians mean we have exhausted all our options and must resort to extreme measures to make simple changes. I don’t think we’re at that point yet and I don’t think we’ll ever be. Social activism is not war. I hate to be sensitive about this but why should free-thinkers be proud of starting another war when the REAL WAR is being fought by our soldiers in the Middle East? We need to end this idea of starting or declaring wars to solve problems. Abolish ALL wars now!

3. Noell:
   April 13th, 2006 @ 1:24 pm

   To me, all the declarations of war are quite humorous. I do have a problem with this particular “War on Easter” though, (although it’s nice to hear from you agan, TXAtheist!)

   Having been a devoted religious person for 30 years, I know what it is like to be on the other side. The tactics proposed by the “War On Easter” will only incite hurt and anger against us and will give further justification to religious people’s opinions that non-religious people are immoral.

   I have read opinions on another blog that they are just giving religious people a taste of their own medicine for bombarding us with their evangelical message. I see this more as one-upping Christians. I have never seen modern Christians enter other people’s holy places and profane the other religion’s gods.

   (In case you haven’t clicked on the link in the first comment, some atheists are sneaking anti-Jesus material and DVD’s into churches, leaving them in pews, etc. for Easter).

   It’s just another in-your-face tactic from some on our side that will only have the effect of making them hate/fear us even more.

4. Rodolfo:
   April 13th, 2006 @ 2:18 pm

   How did Christianity spread? That is the main question asked by the director of that particular film. I think it’s a really great question. One way I experienced the spread of the JC Virus was through door to door invasion. My family would let anyone in the house that spoke of the bible. I still remember receiving those old Watchtower magazines. I absolutely posively believe that they meant no harm and they just felt they were obeying their god by going around the world and teaching the bible. They didn’t know anything else. Obviously its not illegal to do that because we still see those people walking around door to door today. So this is my solution. Instead of waiting once or twice a year to do something extreme like dropping off dvd’s at church pews why not organize something bigger but less provoking? Door to door teaching of science. I’ve seen some people walk miles to get a chance to talk about religion. Well maybe some of you might find that extreme but guess what it worked for the Creationists. I never converted when those missionaries came and talked to me at my house but I at least got to hear their side. Nobody has that devotion for science. I believe if rationalists had a similar system like that we can cause effective change in religious people’s thinking. Or maybe there is something like that but I just don’t know about it.

5. Katie:
   April 13th, 2006 @ 4:50 pm

   Thank you so much for your response. I will look for Sweet Reason on the Humanist News Network for more feedback as well. My boyfriend was raised in a very religious household and there are some things while he doesn’t actively believe (ie the bible) he can’t really shake it from the back of his mind. He also still attends a non-denominational church occasionally. I’ve gone a few times just to listen and have decided it’s definitely not for me. The pastor wasn’t “preachy” and I can see why he likes the community there. He has no expectations that I will ever attend regularly with him and he certainly doesn’t want to convert me. We hashed out all of those issues very early in our relationship.

   “You and your boyfriend differ in the source for that power: He believes it involves God, you believe it comes from humanity. That is the sidenote which you should acknowledge to your kids. Mommy thinks it comes from within us. Daddy thinks there is also a god who helps it happen”

   That’s exactly what I was looking for but couldn’t quite put into words. Thanks again for your response and I’m sure I’ll be back with many more questions!

6. Gregg100:
   April 14th, 2006 @ 10:58 am

   When I married my Roman Catholic wife, it was a rule of the church that any non Catholic must (1) take a series of classes on Catholicism and (2) agree to raise any children as Catholics. Failure to complete either rule meant that the Catholic was not allowed to marry in the church. Since I was raised in a small New England town that was 98% Catholic and it certainly had not hurt any of them as far as I could see, I had no problem agreeing to both rules. I could not attend the regularly scheduled classes for non Catholics and took private classes from a wonderful old Irish priest who soon became aware of my Atheist beliefs and we had great discussions involving such men as Bertrand Russell. In the end he “signed me off” and we shook hands good friends. He realized I understood the Catholic religion, I had no animosity toward it, knew that I had been raised a deist and thought carefully about my change and, of course, had agreed to raise my children as Catholics. We both knew my children would make their own choices later in life.

   My 3 children were all raised in the Catholic religion with all the rituals and also with Santa Claus and Easter Bunnies and for a while even the meatless Fridays. I participated in all the events. As the children grew older they started to question why I never went to church with them and I simply told them it was because I was not Catholic and that was fine until teen years. Then the questions got a little more serious and I finally explained my view in rather simplified terms and that they would be free to make their own decisions as they got a little older just as I did when I left the Episcopal Church. I never made any attempts at conversion.

   They are now in their late 30’s and early ‘40’s. Two are practicing Catholics, married to Catholics and raising their children as Catholics. They have no interest in any significant philosophical discussions and are generally doing things by rote. One (the only one that went to a Catholic high school) is Atheist and married to an Atheist who also graduated from a Catholic high school. We have had some very in-depth discussions on our beliefs and while we have differences, they are clear in their belief.

   My wife no longer supports the Catholic Church in any way and while still a deist, she is very much against many of the Catholic doctrines and current actions of the clergy.

   In summary, it has not been a major issue on our house and seems to have worked out relatively easily.

7. Hifi:
   April 14th, 2006 @ 6:11 pm

   Gregg1000,
   Worked out relatively easily? Here is Rodolfo advocating door-to-door scientific evangelicalism while your laizzez-faire attitude resulted in you not imparting the scientific sense, the tools of critical thinking, the hard questions to your children… such that two of them ended up adhereing to belief in the supernatural!

   You didn’t feel obligated to teach your kids what you know? So, on the one side there was 12 years of Catholic indoctrination and the other side, “Make up your own minds”? How could they? Who did you think was going to present the clear choices? As a parent, your attitude seems unconscionable.

8. Rodolfo:
   April 15th, 2006 @ 1:08 am

   Both my parents were Roman Catholic. I used to believe that their faith was the biggest reason why they never divorced. I was wrong!

   Pops had a huge problem with Rule #7. His problem was he didn’t obey it. I tried my best to convince MOM to divorce him but she didn’t. I never understood why until recently. MOM passed away in 2004 of cancer. She was only 61. But she lived a full life and that kinda helps me move on….

   She wanted to be cremated so that her ashes would always be near her children and future grandchildren. But the Roman Catholic faith wouldn’t allow it. MOM never cared a whole lot for money so she never bothered with a will. But maybe it was a good thing because her funeral allowed everyone to see her greatness one last time. I knew MOM had a lot of friends but the turnout at her funeral was INCREDIBLE. She even had a whole class of former students from the 70s that came and told me what an inspiration she was to them. It was at that moment that I realized I was the luckiest person in the world. My MOM was a hero to everyone she knew. My only regret was not telling her that she was my hero too.

   My MOM was a devout Catholic but the reason she didn’t divorce my dad was because she valued marriage and family more than anything else. I believe now that even if her religion had given her a waiver to go ahead and divorce my dad she still wouldn’t have gone through with it. Divorce would’ve been a failure for her. She was not gonna fail at this. Her persistence and dedication was truly amazing.

   My eulogy consisted mostly of thanks and appreciation. I thanked her for teaching me how to choose. She left a remarkable legacy. It’s her legacy that has kept me focused and driven. On the other hand I’ve also used it as my greatest fear. The fear of not living up to the standards she set. I admit I still have some bitterness towards my dad but for the most part my family is intact and we all support each other. I know MOM would be happy.

   So there really was no conflict in beliefs between my parents. They shared the same faith except my MOM practiced it. Obviously it was me that had issues. But skepticism is a by-product of faith so I guess it was only natural. I’m glad I had those issues because its given me the chance to use the other half of my brain. But this was always my question though. I viewed the idea of family as a by-product of religion. How can I have a family if I don’t have a religion? Creationists always shove that argument in my face. They say its impossible to raise children if you don’t have a book to teach from. Well of course thanks to everyone who posts their comments here I’m starting to see how its possible. I’m sure most of the religious dogma I have will go away eventually. I’m not scared of having kids as much as before though. Thank “god” I’m still in my 20s. Changing diapers can wait.

   I think this is the greatest time in our history to be an agnostic/atheist. It’s crunch time. The ball’s on our court. The whole world is watching us and praying for us to choke. Our attitudes and responses will ultimately determine the outcome.

9. Gregg100:
   April 15th, 2006 @ 5:47 pm

   HiFi, My 42 year old Catholic son, an engineering graduate with two master’s degrees, is an executive with a major computer manufacturer with profit and loss responsibility for their notebook line of computers, lives in a million dollar plus home, is commissioner of all referees in the local soccer league, coached a girls under 12 team to the championships, is an internationally recognized expert in classic BMW cars and written a buyer’s guide for one of the classic models, teaches high speed driving at one of the BMW driving schools and I assure you has an intellect, objectivity and assertiveness that can be quite intimidating. His 10 year old daughter who just came back from China where she trained with the Chinese and Japanese national teams is in the national competitive diving championships this month. His son is a champion baseball player and both children are on invitation-only soccer teams.

   I won’t go through the equivalent but different litany for my 40 year old Catholic daughter whose children both just won gold medals in their respective sports of figure skating and English horse riding and jumping.

   Both enjoy the community of the church. Both are deists but are quite objective about the church doctrines to which they chose to commit. They are not childish enough to see everything from a typical fundamentalist perspective as either/or or all or nothing. They also have the church solidly in it’s place as being something to which they devote less than 2% of their waking hour’s attention. I would be hard pressed to identify where my unconscionable, laissez faire approach damaged them in any way.

10. Noell:
    April 15th, 2006 @ 6:01 pm

    Wow, Gregg, that is amazing. You and your wife have every reason to be extremely proud.

    After reading your previous comment, which Hifi objected to, (BTW, Hifi, do you realize that many of your postings sound like you are yelling at one of us?), I was thinking about how I couldn’t possibly raise my children without teaching them the way I see the world. Then it occurred to me that at least half of what I teach them (or more?) is probably inaccurate anyway! Even if I am in line with current understanding, who knows how much of that will change over the next ten, twenty, thirty years?

    Still, it is my nature to feel a need to pass it along and so I will continue to. My husband is more like you, Gregg.

11. Rodolfo:
    April 15th, 2006 @ 9:51 pm

    Sam Harris is the author of a book called End of Faith. Haven’t read it but I’ve watched him speak on a number of T.V. shows and I agree with most of what he talks about. He is interviewed on this website called pointofinquiry.org and he talks about religious moderates. He explained that moderates are “on the fence” when it comes to their religion. They handpick only the passages of the bible that appeal to them and are wishy-washy when asked why they believe in what they believe. He actually applauds fundamentalists because they’re willing to back up their convictions even if they are wrong.

    I don’t know Gregg100 but I’m sure he’s a terrific parent. But that’s not the issue here. Personally, I don’t know if I could marry someone that didn’t share my views on religion. I don’t really know why but maybe I’m afraid that I won’t fully embrace that person if she were religious. When I hear religious rhetoric nowadays it makes me to feel dumbfounded and thankful I’m not that way anymore. Am I becoming arrogant? I hope not.

    The theme of this website is still “Raising a Healthy Family Without Religion”. Gregg100, Noelle’s parents, and my parents have shown that you can raise children to be good people WITH RELIGION but the question is can you raise children to be good people WITHOUT RELIGION?

    I think Sam Harris criticizing religious moderates is justifiable. Moderates do not allow themselves to question their beliefs therefore never getting a chance to experience the beauty of self-contemplation. You can’t fully examine your life if you don’t question your values.

    I’d rather live in a secular world than a religious world because if we all worked towards a secular society now then I don’t think there would be another Sept 11. Organized Religion is centerstage because of Sept 11. We have to stop giving organized relgion a free pass. We’ve seen the negative effects of it thoughout history. If I had a choice I would teach my kids about the different religions but I won’t label or affiliate them with anything. I can’t imagine being a religious moderate parent today and explaining Sept 11 to my kids. What would I say to them? Do I tell them to pray for the terrorists and hope they don’t do it again? I don’t think that’s gonna work. The fact that there are religious people in the world whose sole purpose in life is to kill our children should be enough to convince everyone to examine their approach to religion. Again we can’t keep giving religion a free pass. Not in today’s world.

    Gregg100-I applaud you and your wife for raising respectable members of society. But I’m curious to find out why two of your kids chose to stay in the Catholic faith while one became an atheist. Also what was the reaction of the two Catholic kids when their mother decided to stop supporting the Catholic Church? I find your situation extremely fascinating!

12. Gregg100:
    April 16th, 2006 @ 3:28 pm

    Rudolfo: My Atheist daughter (also youngest by 7 years) grew up in a little different environment than the other two and was the rebel in the family. Unlike the other two, she was sent to a Catholic high school and came away with a very bad taste in her mouth for Catholicism and regimented education systems. That only fanned the flames of rebellion so with 8 or 9 ear piercings, ankle tattoos and all she shunned any more formal education and chose to concentrate on the entrepreneurial path to fame and fortune. With a very quick intellect and very rigorous, objective perspective I had great confidence she would succeed at whatever she turned her attention to. She met her husband-to-be who had been through almost the same scenario except that he did go to college to the senior level but never graduated. He too was in business for himself. He too had what amounts to contempt for the whole world of organized religion. They were clearly soul mates (if Atheists can be soul mates!) and have participated in atheist activities ever since. They ultimately ended up working together and are quite successful in a real estate escrow business in a beautiful office tower in downtown Belleview, Washington. We will join them to celebrate their 10th anniversary in Paris this coming week.
    The older two just don’t seem that interested in religion and it is an issue that has very low priority at best. The youngest is quite interested in such philosophical discussions and it takes up more of her attention and her personality required her to address the subject and get her own position clear in her head. She has done that.
    My wife is a former registered nurse that left nursing and with some others formed a labor union of medical professionals. The union ultimately became a major nationwide union and she retired as director of organizing. (With me in management and her being a labor organizer, “shop talk” was not usual at the evening dinner table!)
    At one time they were conducting an organizing campaign with the nurses in a Catholic hospital. The church hired the “mafia” of the union busting organizations to keep out the union. That was here first run-in with the church. Many years of other clashes followed and some of the later final straws were such issues as the predatory priests and the bishops and cardinals that protected them and the latest is the church’s encouragement of the defiance of immigration laws. She remains a deist but a very weak Catholic by Baptism only.
    My Catholic children have heard enough of “Mom’s rants” that they fully understand her position and to a large extent they support her positions. They are not ready to leave the church but it is safe to say that they do remain deists, recognize the problems with that and many other churches and just try to take advantage of what they consider the good things the church has to offer and to make their local parish as good a place as possible.

13. TXatheist:
    April 17th, 2006 @ 8:28 am

    Noell,
    I have been struggling to find a reasonable answer to this question. How do atheists/agnostics get people to not despise us? In Texas I merely tell someone I am an atheist and the stereotypes just start coming. Not always, but it takes the liberal/open-minded person to hear me out and then realize that I am atheist for good reasons. Texas is conservative though so that is not typical. My question(maybe a topic) is how do we get xians to just shrug their shoulders when they hear that someone is an atheist/agnostic? As if that proclamation is immaterial and irrelevant.

14. Rodolfo:
    April 17th, 2006 @ 10:07 am

    TXatheist-I’ve been contemplating that just recently. I watched a show on the New York City firefighters and I was really inspired. It’s about the women who wanted to become firefighters but were discouraged because of their gender. What they basically had to do was get organized. Once organized they were able to get their voices heard and showed the city through dedication and hard work that they were as good if not better than the men. I think its a difficult road ahead for atheists/agnostics/rationalists/skeptics/brights/
    infidels/non-religious/secular humanists but the important thing is that we are out here and we do want change. Change that won’t happen overnight.

    Last month I attended a Rational Inquiry club here in San Diego. I’m still relatively new to all this and for me I felt that was a huge step towards the right direction. There’s strength in numbers and I believe that only through leadership and an organized effort can we fight these stereotypes. I’ve started to understand what Secular Humanism (thanks again Noelle!) is all about and they have websites out there that are really worth looking into.

    We also have to continue to lead by example. Our actions will be judged every single time by the public so remember that any bad news that come from the non-believing camp could be devastating. The responsibility is great but I’m sure we could do it.
    I’m obsessed with doing well in school and in my future career not only for myself but to prove to my friends and family that being non-religious works. Change begins with me.

    Gregg100-Thank you so much for sharing your story. I lived in Guam for twelve years and the last three girls I dated when I lived there were Catholic. The relationships never became serious enough to talk about religion but I always knew that it would be trouble if we did because of my personal views. But because I’ve experienced the negative side effects of religion first-hand I have made it a lifelong goal to never again be fooled by the church. At this point it would be hypocritical for me to get married in a church to which I’m strongly opposed. Worked out well for me actually. But it seems you and your wife came out okay despite your religious differences and I think that’s really awesome.

15. Rodolfo:
    April 17th, 2006 @ 11:18 am

    Noelle-Hope my response to TXatheist is in line with what you’re gonna write. I keep forgetting to wait for you to reply first before I jump in. Sorry about that.

16. Noell:
    April 17th, 2006 @ 11:41 am

    No need to wait for me, Rodolpho. I am going to write a whole post on it, so it’ll take me a day or two. I enjoy reading everyone else’s responses to other readers’ questions including yours.

17. TXatheist:
    April 17th, 2006 @ 12:24 pm

    Guam for 12 years???? They offered me 1 year in Guam and then 3 years anywhere else(almost) if I took that duty when it was my time to re-enlist. I just smirked and said I’m out of here in 30 days. I had Navy duty that required me to be on call way too much. 4 years was enough. San Diego may be conservative but in my 9 years there, 3 military, 6 at SDSU and working and I perceive the religious tolerance much different than TX.

18. Hifi:
    April 18th, 2006 @ 6:25 pm

    Gregg,
    That’s nice for you. But, you’ve got nothing on G.H Bush’s fantastically successful family for material accomplishments. This is a man, who while President said, “I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”

    Noell,
    Hmmm… Not sure how can you hear yelling in text? I like to think of that part of my forum style more as exhorting in the style of a black baptist minister, or “you’ve got to be kidding me as in a Dennis Miller rant. You may be able to read between the lines that I am passionate and intense, quite impatient with talk when it replaces acton, and have no tolerance, whatsoever, for hypocrisy. Yet, I never intend offense: I consciously try to restrict criticism to ideas, attitudes and actions rather than the character or constitution of others.

    But yeah, sometimes I can be pretty fiesty. Although you haven’t heard anything unless you have read some of my rants to my District Board of Education over the Pledge (although the district superintendent even commented at a public hearing about his respect for my persistence), or arguments of fact with the California Board of Education’s Equal Opportunity Office about what constitutes discrimination (who recognized my earnest and hand delivered documents to another office), or my recent email discussion with a redneck fundamentalist theocrat essayist from Missouri. (After a dozen emails, he finally began to see how government support of belief was incompatible with the goals he has for his religion and we ended up impressed with each other’s literateness and refusal to pull punches.) And he’s not the first.

    I’m also a regular contributor to the Letters to the Editor of our local rag – even temporarily promoted to the ViewPoint Op-Ed section last month in order to air my response to neo-con Paul Jacob over his paleolithic opinion vis-a-vis the minumum wage. It had facts and fire.

    If that doesn’t make me popular with fence-sitters, hypocrits and bureaucrats, it’s fine by me. I have gotten A LOT done and earned respect for a position that everyone had discounted or simply been oblivious to before.

    When appropriate, having a take no s**t attitude and maintaining an unrelenting stand pays off. It has for my beliefs and for my kids more than I would have ever thought possible. In fact, I’d like to see more of like it from the agnostic crowd, who too often are found wanting when it comes to standing for something.

    BOO!

19. TXatheist:
    April 19th, 2006 @ 9:09 am

    Hifi,
    I appreciate your efforts and willingness to keep plugging away. Don’t give up!

20. Hifi:
    April 19th, 2006 @ 8:55 pm

    TXatheiest, I noticed over at Ebay atheist, that you don’t pull many punches yourself. On point and entertaining. Personally, I don’t care for how they get into petty arguments over there. But I have admired how you persist in the argument for rationality against the clamor of superstition.

21. AgnostikBA:
    April 22nd, 2006 @ 1:40 am

    My wife is Catholic I am Agnostic. Tomorrow she will be taking our 2-months son to church for christening. I will not be there.

    I guess I should also mention that we settled most of our religious differences before we got married. She is not stuck too much with the church dogma, and she sees God as another loving parent who helps her and guides her through her life. She’s got some troubles with depression, and going to church occasionally “refills her emotional batteries”.

    My position on God is that I refuse to believe in anything–I can only rely on knowledge. Why blindly believe in something? But, from what I know, the knowledge about God (either way) is insufficient at this point so hence I’m Agnostic. I learned to respect my wife’s need for God, and need to go to church, and she sees me as someone who is genuine and good, but somehow impaired to sense God’s presence which is very apparent to her.

    On the basic level we have no problems. To me, teachings of Jesus are great and beautiful, and I can’t agree more with them. To her, the primary thing is not the church, but her personal relationship with God. So our basic values are the same.

    So now comes this christening. Before we got married, we agreed that each of us should be free to offer to our kid(s) things that we have to offer: she will show them this immense love that exists between her and God, and I will introduce them to critical thinking, and how to rely on their reason to make conclusions. So our kids will be able to decide for themselves how they want to look at things of higher nature.

    To my wife, the meaning and purpose of christening is to thank God for this wonderful baby we got, and to share to joy. She doesn’t care if I will be there or not because it’s between her and God anyway. That’s all fine with me, but I worry a bit what kind of effect christening will have on our son. It is very important to me that he has complete freedom of choice once he starts developing his own opinions on religion and I am afraid that the mare fact of being baptized will push him, even so slightly, in one direction.

    So I am playing with this idea of having an “agnostic baptizing” for him. I would like to do it in a library (where human knowledge resides), and it will celebrate human search for knowledge, and the science as the best method for collecting that knowledge–as opposed to speculating and blind faith.

    It would be short and tasteful, and I would need some sort of certificate so my son will have a proof that it happened. Again, I know this all may sound very silly, but my only reason for doing it would be to break the exclusivity that Catholic Church will have over my son.

    What do you think, is my idea completely stupid? Does anyone know of some official way to do an “agnostic baptism”?

22. Hifi:
    April 24th, 2006 @ 2:03 pm

    AgnostikBA,
    Christening: The Baptism or naming of an infant as dedicated to Christ.

    How does your wife’s relationship with God justify her forcing your child into a relationship with Him to? A christening is not a neutral activity. It is their membership card. There is no doctrine by which it is a show of thanks. In other religions, baptism is what people do when they’ve made up their minds and not as with Catholics that young children who do receive it will go to hell. You can’t really believe that your wife isn’t taking out that insurance claim on your son. If that was her only intention, a prayer of thanks would seem sufficient.

    With an agnostic “christening” you would be joining your wife in breaking the agreement you both made to let your son decide for himself. Rather than trying to attach two conflicting labels on him in a tug-of-war with your wife, a more neutral idea would be no labels. Your original intuition was the most harmonious, let your son decide – you guys get to teach, but neither gets to brand.

23. jack:
    December 30th, 2009 @ 2:30 pm

    Hi, my wife and i are both agnostics but our niece is getting baptized and my hard headed brother in law says that my wife must be baptized to be the God mother. I was baptized as a child so i’m ok i guess. No he’s saying any kind of baptism is OK, and we’d like to explore how we can do this. any idea’?

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