How does your wife’s relationship with God justify her forcing your child into a relationship with Him to? A christening is not a neutral activity. It is their membership card. There is no doctrine by which it is a show of thanks. In other religions, baptism is what people do when they’ve made up their minds and not as with Catholics that young children who do receive it will go to hell. You can’t really believe that your wife isn’t taking out that insurance claim on your son. If that was her only intention, a prayer of thanks would seem sufficient.

With an agnostic “christening” you would be joining your wife in breaking the agreement you both made to let your son decide for himself. Rather than trying to attach two conflicting labels on him in a tug-of-war with your wife, a more neutral idea would be no labels. Your original intuition was the most harmonious, let your son decide - you guys get to teach, but neither gets to brand.

I guess I should also mention that we settled most of our religious differences before we got married. She is not stuck too much with the church dogma, and she sees God as another loving parent who helps her and guides her through her life. She’s got some troubles with depression, and going to church occasionally “refills her emotional batteries”.

My position on God is that I refuse to believe in anything–I can only rely on knowledge. Why blindly believe in something? But, from what I know, the knowledge about God (either way) is insufficient at this point so hence I’m Agnostic. I learned to respect my wife’s need for God, and need to go to church, and she sees me as someone who is genuine and good, but somehow impaired to sense God’s presence which is very apparent to her.

On the basic level we have no problems. To me, teachings of Jesus are great and beautiful, and I can’t agree more with them. To her, the primary thing is not the church, but her personal relationship with God. So our basic values are the same.

So now comes this christening. Before we got married, we agreed that each of us should be free to offer to our kid(s) things that we have to offer: she will show them this immense love that exists between her and God, and I will introduce them to critical thinking, and how to rely on their reason to make conclusions. So our kids will be able to decide for themselves how they want to look at things of higher nature.

To my wife, the meaning and purpose of christening is to thank God for this wonderful baby we got, and to share to joy. She doesn’t care if I will be there or not because it’s between her and God anyway. That’s all fine with me, but I worry a bit what kind of effect christening will have on our son. It is very important to me that he has complete freedom of choice once he starts developing his own opinions on religion and I am afraid that the mare fact of being baptized will push him, even so slightly, in one direction.

So I am playing with this idea of having an “agnostic baptizing” for him. I would like to do it in a library (where human knowledge resides), and it will celebrate human search for knowledge, and the science as the best method for collecting that knowledge–as opposed to speculating and blind faith.

It would be short and tasteful, and I would need some sort of certificate so my son will have a proof that it happened. Again, I know this all may sound very silly, but my only reason for doing it would be to break the exclusivity that Catholic Church will have over my son.

What do you think, is my idea completely stupid? Does anyone know of some official way to do an “agnostic baptism”?

Noell,
Hmmm… Not sure how can you hear yelling in text? I like to think of that part of my forum style more as exhorting in the style of a black baptist minister, or “you’ve got to be kidding me as in a Dennis Miller rant. You may be able to read between the lines that I am passionate and intense, quite impatient with talk when it replaces acton, and have no tolerance, whatsoever, for hypocrisy. Yet, I never intend offense: I consciously try to restrict criticism to ideas, attitudes and actions rather than the character or constitution of others.

But yeah, sometimes I can be pretty fiesty. Although you haven’t heard anything unless you have read some of my rants to my District Board of Education over the Pledge (although the district superintendent even commented at a public hearing about his respect for my persistence), or arguments of fact with the California Board of Education’s Equal Opportunity Office about what constitutes discrimination (who recognized my earnest and hand delivered documents to another office), or my recent email discussion with a redneck fundamentalist theocrat essayist from Missouri. (After a dozen emails, he finally began to see how government support of belief was incompatible with the goals he has for his religion and we ended up impressed with each other’s literateness and refusal to pull punches.) And he’s not the first.

I’m also a regular contributor to the Letters to the Editor of our local rag - even temporarily promoted to the ViewPoint Op-Ed section last month in order to air my response to neo-con Paul Jacob over his paleolithic opinion vis-a-vis the minumum wage. It had facts and fire.

If that doesn’t make me popular with fence-sitters, hypocrits and bureaucrats, it’s fine by me. I have gotten A LOT done and earned respect for a position that everyone had discounted or simply been oblivious to before.

When appropriate, having a take no s**t attitude and maintaining an unrelenting stand pays off. It has for my beliefs and for my kids more than I would have ever thought possible. In fact, I’d like to see more of like it from the agnostic crowd, who too often are found wanting when it comes to standing for something.

BOO!

Last month I attended a Rational Inquiry club here in San Diego. I’m still relatively new to all this and for me I felt that was a huge step towards the right direction. There’s strength in numbers and I believe that only through leadership and an organized effort can we fight these stereotypes. I’ve started to understand what Secular Humanism (thanks again Noelle!) is all about and they have websites out there that are really worth looking into.

We also have to continue to lead by example. Our actions will be judged every single time by the public so remember that any bad news that come from the non-believing camp could be devastating. The responsibility is great but I’m sure we could do it.
I’m obsessed with doing well in school and in my future career not only for myself but to prove to my friends and family that being non-religious works. Change begins with me.

Gregg100-Thank you so much for sharing your story. I lived in Guam for twelve years and the last three girls I dated when I lived there were Catholic. The relationships never became serious enough to talk about religion but I always knew that it would be trouble if we did because of my personal views. But because I’ve experienced the negative side effects of religion first-hand I have made it a lifelong goal to never again be fooled by the church. At this point it would be hypocritical for me to get married in a church to which I’m strongly opposed. Worked out well for me actually. But it seems you and your wife came out okay despite your religious differences and I think that’s really awesome.

I don’t know Gregg100 but I’m sure he’s a terrific parent. But that’s not the issue here. Personally, I don’t know if I could marry someone that didn’t share my views on religion. I don’t really know why but maybe I’m afraid that I won’t fully embrace that person if she were religious. When I hear religious rhetoric nowadays it makes me to feel dumbfounded and thankful I’m not that way anymore. Am I becoming arrogant? I hope not.

The theme of this website is still “Raising a Healthy Family Without Religion”. Gregg100, Noelle’s parents, and my parents have shown that you can raise children to be good people WITH RELIGION but the question is can you raise children to be good people WITHOUT RELIGION?

I think Sam Harris criticizing religious moderates is justifiable. Moderates do not allow themselves to question their beliefs therefore never getting a chance to experience the beauty of self-contemplation. You can’t fully examine your life if you don’t question your values.

I’d rather live in a secular world than a religious world because if we all worked towards a secular society now then I don’t think there would be another Sept 11. Organized Religion is centerstage because of Sept 11. We have to stop giving organized relgion a free pass. We’ve seen the negative effects of it thoughout history. If I had a choice I would teach my kids about the different religions but I won’t label or affiliate them with anything. I can’t imagine being a religious moderate parent today and explaining Sept 11 to my kids. What would I say to them? Do I tell them to pray for the terrorists and hope they don’t do it again? I don’t think that’s gonna work. The fact that there are religious people in the world whose sole purpose in life is to kill our children should be enough to convince everyone to examine their approach to religion. Again we can’t keep giving religion a free pass. Not in today’s world.

Gregg100-I applaud you and your wife for raising respectable members of society. But I’m curious to find out why two of your kids chose to stay in the Catholic faith while one became an atheist. Also what was the reaction of the two Catholic kids when their mother decided to stop supporting the Catholic Church? I find your situation extremely fascinating!

After reading your previous comment, which Hifi objected to, (BTW, Hifi, do you realize that many of your postings sound like you are yelling at one of us?), I was thinking about how I couldn’t possibly raise my children without teaching them the way I see the world. Then it occurred to me that at least half of what I teach them (or more?) is probably inaccurate anyway! Even if I am in line with current understanding, who knows how much of that will change over the next ten, twenty, thirty years?

Still, it is my nature to feel a need to pass it along and so I will continue to. My husband is more like you, Gregg.

I won’t go through the equivalent but different litany for my 40 year old Catholic daughter whose children both just won gold medals in their respective sports of figure skating and English horse riding and jumping.

Both enjoy the community of the church. Both are deists but are quite objective about the church doctrines to which they chose to commit. They are not childish enough to see everything from a typical fundamentalist perspective as either/or or all or nothing. They also have the church solidly in it’s place as being something to which they devote less than 2% of their waking hour’s attention. I would be hard pressed to identify where my unconscionable, laissez faire approach damaged them in any way.

Pops had a huge problem with Rule #7. His problem was he didn’t obey it. I tried my best to convince MOM to divorce him but she didn’t. I never understood why until recently. MOM passed away in 2004 of cancer. She was only 61. But she lived a full life and that kinda helps me move on….

She wanted to be cremated so that her ashes would always be near her children and future grandchildren. But the Roman Catholic faith wouldn’t allow it. MOM never cared a whole lot for money so she never bothered with a will. But maybe it was a good thing because her funeral allowed everyone to see her greatness one last time. I knew MOM had a lot of friends but the turnout at her funeral was INCREDIBLE. She even had a whole class of former students from the 70s that came and told me what an inspiration she was to them. It was at that moment that I realized I was the luckiest person in the world. My MOM was a hero to everyone she knew. My only regret was not telling her that she was my hero too.

My MOM was a devout Catholic but the reason she didn’t divorce my dad was because she valued marriage and family more than anything else. I believe now that even if her religion had given her a waiver to go ahead and divorce my dad she still wouldn’t have gone through with it. Divorce would’ve been a failure for her. She was not gonna fail at this. Her persistence and dedication was truly amazing.

My eulogy consisted mostly of thanks and appreciation. I thanked her for teaching me how to choose. She left a remarkable legacy. It’s her legacy that has kept me focused and driven. On the other hand I’ve also used it as my greatest fear. The fear of not living up to the standards she set. I admit I still have some bitterness towards my dad but for the most part my family is intact and we all support each other. I know MOM would be happy.

So there really was no conflict in beliefs between my parents. They shared the same faith except my MOM practiced it. Obviously it was me that had issues. But skepticism is a by-product of faith so I guess it was only natural. I’m glad I had those issues because its given me the chance to use the other half of my brain. But this was always my question though. I viewed the idea of family as a by-product of religion. How can I have a family if I don’t have a religion? Creationists always shove that argument in my face. They say its impossible to raise children if you don’t have a book to teach from. Well of course thanks to everyone who posts their comments here I’m starting to see how its possible. I’m sure most of the religious dogma I have will go away eventually. I’m not scared of having kids as much as before though. Thank “god” I’m still in my 20s. Changing diapers can wait.

I think this is the greatest time in our history to be an agnostic/atheist. It’s crunch time. The ball’s on our court. The whole world is watching us and praying for us to choke. Our attitudes and responses will ultimately determine the outcome.

You didn’t feel obligated to teach your kids what you know? So, on the one side there was 12 years of Catholic indoctrination and the other side, “Make up your own minds”? How could they? Who did you think was going to present the clear choices? As a parent, your attitude seems unconscionable.

My 3 children were all raised in the Catholic religion with all the rituals and also with Santa Claus and Easter Bunnies and for a while even the meatless Fridays. I participated in all the events. As the children grew older they started to question why I never went to church with them and I simply told them it was because I was not Catholic and that was fine until teen years. Then the questions got a little more serious and I finally explained my view in rather simplified terms and that they would be free to make their own decisions as they got a little older just as I did when I left the Episcopal Church. I never made any attempts at conversion.

They are now in their late 30’s and early ‘40’s. Two are practicing Catholics, married to Catholics and raising their children as Catholics. They have no interest in any significant philosophical discussions and are generally doing things by rote. One (the only one that went to a Catholic high school) is Atheist and married to an Atheist who also graduated from a Catholic high school. We have had some very in-depth discussions on our beliefs and while we have differences, they are clear in their belief.

My wife no longer supports the Catholic Church in any way and while still a deist, she is very much against many of the Catholic doctrines and current actions of the clergy.

In summary, it has not been a major issue on our house and seems to have worked out relatively easily.

“You and your boyfriend differ in the source for that power: He believes it involves God, you believe it comes from humanity. That is the sidenote which you should acknowledge to your kids. Mommy thinks it comes from within us. Daddy thinks there is also a god who helps it happen”

That’s exactly what I was looking for but couldn’t quite put into words. Thanks again for your response and I’m sure I’ll be back with many more questions!

Having been a devoted religious person for 30 years, I know what it is like to be on the other side. The tactics proposed by the “War On Easter” will only incite hurt and anger against us and will give further justification to religious people’s opinions that non-religious people are immoral.

I have read opinions on another blog that they are just giving religious people a taste of their own medicine for bombarding us with their evangelical message. I see this more as one-upping Christians. I have never seen modern Christians enter other people’s holy places and profane the other religion’s gods.

(In case you haven’t clicked on the link in the first comment, some atheists are sneaking anti-Jesus material and DVD’s into churches, leaving them in pews, etc. for Easter).

It’s just another in-your-face tactic from some on our side that will only have the effect of making them hate/fear us even more.