17 Comments »

1. Suman Bolar:
   April 17th, 2006 @ 10:18 pm

   Hello from India!

   Your blog makes interesting reading — I’m an agnostic married to an atheist, and we’ve two sons aged 7 1/2 and 11.

   My seven-year old asked a question last night that led me here. He says that he “doesn’t believe there’s a God,” but “believes that there’s some force that makes things the way they are.” He’s not sure whether that force is “nature or something else.” He also says that he’s “not sure whether he just THINKS that or BELIEVES it.”

   I’m wondering — do I have a budding theist agnostic here?

   11 year-old, on the other hand, “doesn’t believe in God,” but believes instead that “God is just the face that man’s imagination has given to the natural forces of the universe.”

   I’d like to take this conversation with them further, and usually rely on instinct — but if anyone has any ideas/thoughts on how I could explore this with them. I’d appreciate it!

2. Mary:
   April 17th, 2006 @ 11:59 pm

   It’s a small blog world sometimes, isn’t it?

3. Suman Bolar:
   April 18th, 2006 @ 9:22 am

   Absolutely! I often find that people all over the world have the same concerns and issues no matter what their culture, country, or religious belief may be.

   In my opinion, economic disparity is one of the few factors that leads to wildly divergent views on everyday issues like parenting, relationships, and the work ethic.

4. casey kochmer:
   April 18th, 2006 @ 12:21 pm

   reading thru online materials can be addicting

   but the printed material does still offer perks, such as reading under the sun at the river bank

5. Noell:
   April 18th, 2006 @ 3:51 pm

   Suman! Thanks for speaking up! Your kids sound very thoughtful, smart, and pensive. It amazes me that your seven-year-old differentiated believe thinking something and believing something.

   As for exploring further exploring your children’s thoughts, you and I are probably similar. I tend to follow my children’s lead on these issues. If I try to push the subject, they’re not ready for it. If I talk much, they lose interest. So I usually wait for the subject to come up and then I ask lots of follow up questions. Sometimes I ask questions to challenge an assertion they make. But I try to never make judgements on their opinion, and I always let them know it’s okay to disagree.

   Another way to explore the subject is through books that deal with the subject. Myth books for children would be a start. With your seven-year-old you could explore all the various “faces” of god from culture to culture. It would be interesting to note how the customs and views of a certain culture may have influenced the temperment of that culture’s gods. Gods past were much more jealous and vengeful than, say, the modern American Jesus.

   I have a post I have begun about some children’s books on myth. I plan to finish and post it soon (of course, I’ve been planning to post it for two weeks now!). Come back and watch for it, Suman.

6. Noell:
   April 18th, 2006 @ 3:57 pm

   Suman–I have always been fascinated with Indian culture. I would love to go someday. I have some questions:

   What is it like being atheist/agnostic in India?
   Are atheists viewed as evil the way they are in the U.S?
   How “religious” are the religious? Meaning, do hindu’s range from fundamentalist to liberal?

   I have had a minimal amount of contact with a number of different Hindu people. One woman spoke as if hindu’s don’t literally believe in the actual existence of the gods of their religion. She spoke of them as if she saw them more as symbollic than real. Is that typical or mainstream hindu’s? Or is she a more liberal hindu? I did not get that impression with some others I have spoken with, but I never asked directly.

7. Cori:
   April 18th, 2006 @ 11:02 pm

   Thanks, Agnostic Mom, for the kind words It has been so enlightening to me to follow your blog and read up on the questions, challenges, possibilities of bringing up kids outside of a religious system. Kevin and I have sometimes talked about how we would bring up our kids if we ever had them – I would want to take them to church; he wouldn’t want them to go to the church of any particular religion or it might bias their decision, but then I’d argue by not exposing them to religion at all you’re already biasing their choice … Yup, we decided not to have kids!

8. Suman Bolar:
   April 19th, 2006 @ 10:05 am

   Thanks Noell,

   Books! Now why didn’t I think of that (considering ours is a family of voracious readers, you’d think that’d be an obvious choice!)

   To answer your questions…
   What is it like being atheist/agnostic in India?
   Hinduism is very tolerant of other belief systems, but atheism isn’t accepted as a system of belief… it’s treated more as a hiccup on the road to true knowledge. My husband isn’t viewed as evil at all; most people react with amused indulgence when he expresses his position, thinking, no doubt, that he will someday see the light.

   Agnosticism, on the other hand, is more in line with the Hindu thought system. Hindu scriptures (the Vedas. “Ved” means knowledge/wisdom in Sanskrit) are simply a collection of thoughts on how to seek the “Absolute Truth.” These scriptures were later exploited, interpreted and ritualized to the benefit of the Brahmins (the uppermost caste.) Information is power and all that

   How religious do people get? Well sure, there are some pretty right-wing fanatics out there, especially in the “cow belt,” (the equivalent of your “Bible belt.”) As a religion, though, I think it’s one of the most tolerant. The great majority of the Indian urban middle class is religious, but not usually orthodox. People don’t view “traditional” as being “religious”… you’ll often find people honoring traditions without really assigning any religious importance to them. Hinduism is more a way of life than a religion, so it’s wide open to interpretation…

   …which is why you’ve heard differing views about “gods.” Your Hindu woman friend is well-informed.
   To quote the Bhagavad Gita, “Whatever and whichever way men approach Me, even so do I accept them; whatever paths they may choose finally lead to Me.” In Hinduism, “Me” is the “Absolute” and refers to the “one truth” that is formless and timeless. Hinduism believes in one God expressed in different forms; and that one God is Truth. People who understand their faith and its history know that idolatry was a result of subsequent ritualization, and does not really find a place in the scriptures.

   Ritualization and the widespread lack of actual knowledge of Hinduism (I call it religion-by-rote) are the main reasons why I no longer subscribe to it as a religion… as a science, however, it is consistent with my agnostic position.

   Will you look at that?! My two cents’ worth just turned into a whole dollar! Sorry… Didn’t mean to bore you!

9. Ron:
   April 19th, 2006 @ 1:07 pm

   you gotta love the internet!

10. fran:
    April 19th, 2006 @ 1:27 pm

    God as a concept is your own. Everyone has there very own design- a- god and he comes with many different sets of instuction for construction. The book of mormon, the St James version, The Quaran, and many many more . The muslims have there’s . Falwell has his . There are literally millions millions of gods to pick from . How many times has christianity divided? How many times have muslims divided . How many interpretations have there been . The anti-gay preacher from tennessee, Pat Robertson’s interpretation of God himself , Tell me is Spongebob Squarepants really gay? It is all so silly and crass and above all so phony. God is whoever you want him to be in any given span of time. Personally , I’ll stick with science and leave ignorance to the silly people

11. Noell:
    April 19th, 2006 @ 1:46 pm

    So, Fran, would you say there are as many gods as there are people? Or perhaps there are multiple gods per person!

    Suman–You think you’re boring me, but I am planning to occupy this space with as many questions for you that you will allow. I have been wanting the chance to really sit down with somebody of Hindu backgroud for a number of years now. I have not had that opportunity with my Indian friends.

    You have clarified a lot of things for me already. And now, more questions: Do you consider yourself a Hindu culturally? Do mainstream Hindu’s regard God the way you explained it to me? Or just the most educated ones?

    Do you and your husband believe in an absolute Truth? What is your take on morality? I have been meaning to write some posts regarding morality for a long time and I keep running into other topics that seem more urgent at the time.

    Do you know of any children’s books of Hindu stories that I could read to my kids? Stories we would understanding the purpose of without having had much exposure to the religion? It is harder for me to grasp the meaning of the few stories I have heard because they are so foreign to western thought. I have always wanted to expose my kids to Hinduism and I just don’t know how.

    I like the way you explained God and I think my son will identify with that.

12. Suman Bolar:
    April 19th, 2006 @ 11:42 pm

    I think Fran is right, in a way. I like the Hindu concept of “advaita” or “oneness”; it sets forth the idea that God and each individual are indivisible, “just as a pinch of salt dropped in the ocean.” By that token, there are indeed as many Gods as there are human beings on the planet!

    Noell: Hindu mythology is great for kids — it’s full of battles, magic, demons, handsome princes and princesses, evil queens and brave warriors. We have two epics — the Mahabharatha and the Ramayana — and each has literally hundreds of mini-stories in it. The Bhagavad Gita itself comes from a chapter in the Mahabharatha.

    You’d have to explain some things first, though. These are notions our kids grow up with, and I can understand how alien they may seem to Western cultures. Here goes:

    - In our stories, there are three worlds — the earth, inhabited by humans; the heavens, inhabited by gods; and the netherworld, inhabited by demons (sound familiar?!)

    - Gods and demons could have many arms, eyes, legs, heads, etc. They could take many forms and transform themselves at will into another form (called an avatar.) Very Harry Potter.

    - A human who showed his/her devotion to a god or a demon could receive magical boons in the form of weaponry, magical abilities, powers, or anything that she/he wished for.

    - If it seemed like a human or a demon was getting too big for his boots, one of the gods would descend in an avatar to set things right and maintain balance in the three worlds.

    - Hindu literature has its own Trinity: Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer. (Hindu scriptures, however, state that giving God any form is only a means to help people give conceivable shape to the Absolute in order to be able to focus on it.)

    - You may also want to explain that in ancient times, kings could have as many wives as they wished

    Having laid the groundwork, these are good books:
    The Ramayana for Children by Bulbul Sharma ISBN: 0670049646

    The Mahabharatha: A Child’s View (Two volumes) by Samhita Arni ISBN: 8186211705 (this is written and illustrated by an 11 year-old girl.)

    These are folk tales and other stories that have nothing to do with mythology:
    Puffin Book of Classic Indian Tales by Meera Uberoi ISBN: 0143335405

    Puffin Treasury of Modern Indian Stories by Mala Dalal ISBN: 0670049476

    Enjoy!

13. fran:
    April 20th, 2006 @ 5:51 am

    It seems that everywhere you look a god is created for any given situation. Everyone relies on there own interpretation . Catholics , baptists, jews , hindus, bhuddists ,etc. If you look closely, and over the years this convinced me there was no god, all of the ancient mideastern religions are interwoven with elements of the western religions. Christ must have studied middle eastern religion because his gospel is riddled with middle eastern thought with a slighty different twist for effect. The trinity was actually a middle eastern religious concept that started with Vishnu 600 years before Christ .There are so many more examples . Christ was a good guy who meant well but he wasn’t the son of god or the son of man as he claimed and he certainly didn’t rise from the dead . I am convinced that was staged.To me it’s just a matter of common sense.

14. fran:
    April 20th, 2006 @ 1:09 pm

    whoops , it should have been vice versa eastern to western . Sometimes I can be such a doofus

15. Kevin:
    April 24th, 2006 @ 11:25 am

    Hi Noell

    I just want to say a warm thank you for the kind words. I’m glad that you found the article interesting, and I really like the comment that you posted.

    All the best
    Kevin

16. Abhilash Pillai:
    July 21st, 2006 @ 5:21 am

    Hi
    I am from India and found this site very interesting.

    Cheers!!!!

    Abhilash Pillai

17. N. Prakasam:
    December 7th, 2007 @ 5:17 am

    I am basically a christian married to an hindu girl. I don’t teach any religion to my children. I teach and follow agnosticism to my children.

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