Comments on: A Public Relations Makeover?

By: Rodolfo

Rodolfo — Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:27:00 +0000

Imagine no heaven, no hell, no countries, nothing to kill or die for, no possessions, no need for greed or hunger and no religion too. You may say that I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. -John Lennon

I remember singing this song in my 7th grade choir. It took me 12 years but I finally get it.

By: Hifi

Hifi — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:30:22 +0000

fran,
You’re right about that. Regardless, if there are so few atheists, in denial or not, who are “out” – such that the average person still doesn’t know any – we still have this PR obstacle. It won’t be overcome by the few people who are willing to acknowledge to themselves, no less others, who they are. And like Noell said, for people who know you – with the exception of relatives – it doesn’t make much difference. It is in the anonymous public domain where we our image hurts us.

By: fran

fran — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:26:01 +0000

conceive (sp) whoops !

By: fran

fran — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:24:00 +0000

There are so many variables involved that I don’t see how one could go about measuring atheism given the current stigmatism that exists . I am convinced people will say they believe just to have a ” protective ” barrier in case their mother was wrong ,or to stay in the loop . Imagine if the survey was done at Notre Dame ? Even if they don’t claim they believe they would offer a humble ” I’m not sure ” fearing the retort of a vengeful pretend god . How many times have you been confronted with this illogical question: Wouldn’t you rather believe and be wrong than die and there is a god? I think there are a lot more non-believers than any research could ever uncover. The only measure I could concieve would be testing along the lines of an mmpi where questions could be manipulated and measured based on the honesty of the participant and even then the readings would be suspect.

By: Hifi

Hifi — Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:53:31 +0000

Speaking of the UofM study about the negative view and distrust Americans have for atheists one commentator had this to say, “Agnostics like myself…would very much like to be considered full citizens and participate in American public life. The study found that â€œnegative views about atheists are strong,â€ but that â€œsurvey respondents were not, on the whole, referring to actual atheists they had encountered.â€

Since there simply arenâ€™t that many atheists in the country â€“ 3 percent of the population, according to the study â€“ this situation is not likely to improve very quickly, assuming it can at all.”

I reiterate my earlier statement, “In that light, personal revelations will do little to change the dominant view of atheists as the least trusted demographic in America – including the way our friends vote on religious issues. The last thing they will do is consider how promotion of religion by government is going to affect us.”

By: fran

fran — Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:24:11 +0000

Very good Noell……

By: Noell

Noell — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:48:23 +0000

Davin–the way you describe perceptions in India sounds very much like perceptions in America. We recently heard from another reader from India whose experience there is much more tolerant. I guess it varies from city to city, depending on the education level and the diversity in the area.

By: Noell

Noell — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:45:54 +0000

Sarah–It sounds like your mom is trying to guilt-trip you a bit? You seem to be expressing confidence in your stance, and that is good. Usually when a person says they are praying for me, even when they know I don’t believe in prayer, I say, “Thank you for thinking of me.”

If, as in the case with your mother, they are purposely ignoring your beliefs, or putting them down and not showing proper respect, I would just say, “Oh, ok . . .” and continue on with the conversation as if it never came up. That way your mother would not have a chance to follow with her guilt-trip lines, and instead would get the message that you’re not going there with her.

Sarah, you also said:

“I usually received shocked questions about how I could possibly not believe in god when people discover Iâ€™m agnostic. I refrain from challenging them about their beliefs but usually want to say something along the lines of, â€œâ€¦for the same reason you donâ€™t believe in Allah, or Zeus, or leprechauns. I just donâ€™t!â€

I like the direction you are thinking, but by leaving out “Zeus” and “leprechauns” you can make a very intellectual point and still be extremely polite and non-offensive: “I don’t believe in God for the same reason you don’t believe in Allah or Buddha or Vishnu.”

I really like that answer.

I have been meaning to write a post about a conversation with a friend. She asked me how I can get through the day, and through life, without hope in a god and without praying. I told her that I believe the feelings she gets from praying and believing are real. I just don’t believe they are from a god. I believe they come from within. They are natural human experiences which I have just as much access to.

By: fran

fran — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:39:20 +0000

Before noell gets a chance to offer I’d like to say that you need not feel as though you need to answer anything because after all they are the ones asserting there is a god or perhaps multiple gods and kindred spirits who are responsible for the mess the world is in . If the burden of proof is on anyone it’s on the christians and islamics who make claim to the omnipotent omniscient god that drowns infants in their cribs just so that he can cloak to some fantasy of some street lined with gold coupled with pearly gate ideals. I’d like to know who in the hell would ever think about honoring a character who would allow his child to go to the brink of slaughtering his own cause he wanted a chuckle or whatever. You no longer harbor the burden of sticking up for such a horrible creature . So relax

By: Julie

Julie — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:26:18 +0000

I think your approach is sensible. Likewise, I have moved to an area similar to the one you describe, and I’ve found that giving a matter-of-fact, non-defensive answer to such questions has served me best.

By: Sarah

Sarah — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:14:18 +0000

I think your suggestions as to how to handle one’s atheism/agnosticism are good, Noelle. Although just yesterday my mom proudly told me she’d pray for my boyfriend, who has a job interview this week. After a bit of awkward silence on my end, she said, “but I guess YOU couldn’t pray for him, could you?” “Well, no… you are free to do so, but I don’t believe your prayer will do anything.” “I don’t understand how you could believe that! But that’s a whole other conversation!” How would you suggest I react to comments like this (which usually come from my mother)? I feel like she’s holding onto the hope that I will return to Christianity or theism in general, even though I am certain that won’t happen.
I usually received shocked questions about how I could possibly not believe in god when people discover I’m agnostic. I refrain from challenging them about their beliefs but usually want to say something along the lines of, “…for the same reason you don’t believe in Allah, or Zeus, or leprechauns. I just don’t!” I don’t know how to express myself with tact when the subject comes up.

By: C. L. Hanson

C. L. Hanson — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:39:37 +0000

Hey Noell,

You post here describes one of the main things I’m trying to accomplish with my blog, namely present a visible exaple of a nice, normal person who’s an atheist to counter whatever imaginary psychopathic atheists people have in their heads when they’ve never met a real one.

I prefer to identify primarily as atheist. I’m not saying that I can actively disprove the existence of exery possible thing that might fit someone’s definition of God. So when pressed, I’ll go with “agnostic atheist.” But I don’t like to identify as primarily agnostic when talking with people who identify according to a particular religion such as Christian because I feel like that would be like granting them that my position is the one that’s less certain, which is far from being the case.

By: Zoe

Zoe — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:29:37 +0000

Appreciated this post Noelle.

By: fran

fran — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:41:57 +0000

Personally, I am not angry with anyone. I’m extremely happy to be a free of the burdens that were once placed on me by religious oppression. The feeling that I was different because I , for some reason, couldn’t communicate with nothingness . I felt strange and different.I couldn’t reconcile that with the way others ” claimed ” to be feeling . Until I met people who were non believers that is . Then it all began to make sense, but only after a long period of practically being forced to believe in supnaturalist magic. I never saw a ghost , yet other kids had seen them when I was younger( or so they claimed) . Every time I’d go to see I was the one who wanted to have a closer look and see what all the humdrum was all about . I always found a rational reasonable explanation for the occurence , always!! . That ended the craziness, but “never ” was there a ghost , god , or spirit . I’ve gone to supposed “visions” of the blessed mother and ” always ” there was a rational explanation . Even when people were standing there insisting , folding there hands , and saying oh please please say you see it , please please . I’ve had people say that they had near death experiences ( the hovering one is common ) and while I always tried to be courteous and refrain from calling them on their falsehoods I was able to ask enough questions and find a reasonable answer . I’ve also had people say to me that when its time , god will reveal himself to you, that is a fallsafe that doesnt make sense to me . Religious people are spiritual when religion doesnt work for them anymore . It’s sort of like their own little alibi-denial spin system but I always try to remember Mark Twain’s line in this case . ” Faith is believing in something you know ain’t so.”

By: devin nambiar

devin nambiar — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:29:11 +0000

hello, AGmom
i’m devin from Mumbai,India and this is my first post on ur site. i’ve enjoyed reading your views on agnosticism and must say a lot of’em are similar to mine.
as an agnotic from a country that is a birthplace of 4 religions(hinduism, buddhism, sikhism & jainism), it’s indeed very surprising for a lot of my fellow indians to accept my beliefs on religion(i dont know how the situation is in america).
atheism or agnosticism in our country is still to be seen as an actual belief. the word used is “naastik”(in hindi) which translates to atheist and there is a lot of negativity attached to its tone.
one of the main reasons i think people are yet accept this belief system in the mainstream might be due to a lack of any famous figures who speak openly about it. people associate a person with his religion i.e if they see a successful hindu/christian etc. they associate the success to their religious faith. so i certainly beleive more people from the media need to be open about their agnosticism/atheism for the belief to find mainstream acceptance it deserves.

PS. wikipedia states that 1.1 billion people are secular/atheist/agnostic/irreligious making it the third largest belief system after christianity & islam.

By: Cori

Cori — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 06:34:58 +0000

I agree with Christy here and would like to add a bit to what she’s said. Atheists have stereotypes of Christians as much as Christians have stereotypes of atheists. What both Kevin and I have found when interacting with the opposite group (he is an atheist and I am a Christian) is that they are always surprised when we are humble, unaggressive, wanting to learn rather than teach, asking questions rather than firing information, and, att all costs, refuse to enter an argument just in order to win it. We like to approach every conversation about our beliefs as learning opportunity – as Noell has done in the dialogue around Hinduism in a previous post of hers.

Just browsing the blogosphere, I am amazed at how many Christians and atheists are so extremist in their views, so angry, as Christy says, so argumentative and aggressive. If you’re going to be aggressive in your atheism, you’re sure going to get a negative response.

When Kevin announced to my Bible study group (which he kindly attents for my sake now and then) that he no longer believes in God but would like to participate as a humble learner, this group of hard-core Christians has tears in their eyes, and their opinion of all atheists shifted some what. I think its superb to have conversations like this, across all sorts of beliefs, to start breaking these stereotypes, and unlike some other comments posted above, believe that through humble dialogue, which seeks learning above being right, and acknowledging our shared humanity above our individual differences, it is possible to live in a space beyond the categories.

By: Christy

Christy — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 05:48:50 +0000

I believe that religious people associate atheist with anger. In same cases, right fully so. For example, the group of atheist that felt it was so important to put publications in the church Easter morning. I doubt that any â€œgoodâ€ Christian walked out of church questioning the existence of god. Instead they fueled the ideaâ€™s they may have already had that atheist are angry people. I think that perception of anger scares people away. Also, I believe people have the perception that if you do not believe in religion then you have to â€œhateâ€ religion. And if you â€œhateâ€ religion, then how can you accept your religious family, friends, and neighbors. Many posts ago, I stated how I donâ€™t think religion is bad, bad for me, but not bad as a hole. Wow, did people jump on me for that one. Even a couple questioned my beliefs. That being said, I think that fuels the negative perception. This is a â€œbattleâ€ that you can NOT fight fire with fire. It needs to be a slow and steady course. And for those who feel doomed, hold you head up high and your hearts wide open. Just look back 50 years. Technology aside, do you think there was a group of people having discussions like this? This country and even this world has come a long way.

By: fran

fran — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:51:23 +0000

I don’t want to sound like a doomsday scientist but the ignorance of supernaturalism may someday be the destruction of mankind . As much as Islam believes that they are the ultimate selection and christianity believes they are the ultimate selection it likely we are heading to an impasse that may be resolved with the push of a button . Remember , Pakistan India and North Korea all possess nukes with Iran wanting to join the fray. We are aligned with Israel because they have convinced us that the roots of pretend god started with them so therefor we must protect them in order to protect pretend god and of course islam calls for the destruction of Israel and it all starts with magic and supernaturalism. Fantasy and fiction . Ghosts, gods , and spirits fueled by ignorance . We need to encourage scientists to work fast cause we are at war with ourselves .

By: Terry S.

Terry S. — Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:49:55 +0000

Hey,

I just posted a little anecdote which is reflective of this very topic. Give it a look. I won’t claim it to be a typical response, but, neither is it particularly unusual.

TLS

By: fran

fran — Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:33:21 +0000

Contrary to what the two of you have expressed I live in a more liberal community and I am convinced there are many people who question the existance of a single god who rules the roost and can terminate your life in a hot new york minute . They simply go along with the program to stay in the loop.Many have jobs that depend on nursing the proticol. There kids gotta eat. I am totally convinced of that!! Many are searching outside of the traditional religions for answers but I am again convinced that in the long run they may find peace with the people they associate with but there will be no supernatural godly guidance . Only people enjoying each others company and taking stock in the fantasy prescribed .Rational people need to validate there own individual belief and anyone who questions religious fantasy can only come to one conclusion they can actually live with. That is if they are being honest with themselves . Given the evidence at hand , there are no gods, ghosts, or spirits leading us anywhere and that most of the fanatics have made up the story . Science is the only answer . Proving all of this through extensive research is what ultimately must be done. My only fear is they will destroy all of this for the sake of their phony made up god . THAT’S SCARY!!

By: Hifi

Hifi — Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:42:22 +0000

I agree there are two separate problems atheists have here. The first is handling people who know us, even people we are getting to know. The second is with people who do not know us – the American public.

Yes, we can try to win friends and influence people one at a time. But that’s a long haul and, Noell, as you say, it does not make much difference to either the people we know or to ourselves to if we let acquaintances know more or less about who we are (relatives is a different matter).

In that light, personal revelations will do little to change the dominant view of atheists as the least trusted demographic in America – including the way our friends vote on religion in government. The last thing they will do is to relate how it is going to affect us. Noell, I don’t mean to jump the gun on your second post, so I’ll wait until your next post to comment in more depth. But it is the public domain where we are at most risk and it is from there that the attitudes of even our close relations can be most moderated.