25 Comments »

1. Gregg100:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 9:41 am

   I certainly can’t forecast what others may do but I can speak from some experiences of my own. My wife has dealt with cancer three times, uterine, breast and salivary gland. While raised a Catholic, she remains a deist but has since left the church with a very bad image of the organization. At no time during any of those episodes did she turn to religion. She was very dedicated to understanding and using the best science could offer and spent her time concentrating on that approach. There were some tough “patient option” decisions to make and she felt the time spent on study paid off. She has been cancer free for 5 years, goes to the gym three days a week and is doing just fine.

   I have been through two heart attacks. Simply stated, my approach was the same as hers. There were no “ER Epiphanies”. I too go to the gym plus take 3.5 mile walks three days a week and fly my sailplane every week (weather permitting).

2. Patti:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 12:04 pm

   My progress has been the reverse of what you’re wondered about….I was a Christian, but the accidental deaths of my three brothers made me stop and consider whether I really could believe in a deity who seems to delight in, not just non-existence, but torture – and whether I really thought that a being like that would be worthy of worship if it did exist.

   Thanks for your thoughtful blogging…

3. Stephanie:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 4:13 pm

   My mom was recently in a head on collision. After 3 weeks in the hospital she is home, but immobile with 2 broken legs, 1 broken arm, broken sternum and broken ribs. My sisters and I are taking care of her now.
   I think my atheism has helped me keep things in perspective. This was something terrible that happened, but bad things happen. I have not asked god why or tried to blame anyone other than the person who hit her. However, my mom and sisters are religious and I think that has made this harder for them. My mom has been poring over her bible trying to understand why this has happened to her. She has many religious books by her nightstand I assume to help her understand why. If her religion were helping her get through this, I would not mind. But, I see her struggling trying to understand why god did this to her and I think it hinders her healing.
   I really do not see myself turning to religion for any reason. When a person does not believe in a god or supernatural powers, there needn’t be an explanation for why things happen other than that’s life. I still have to deal with the trauma of everything that has happened, but I don’t need to add guilt to that or beat myself up over why god did something to my family. It’s really sad to me that other people think these things are controlled by a god and spend lifetimes wondering why it happened to them.

4. mothergoosemouse:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 7:37 pm

   My atheism – specifically, my lack of belief in an afterlife – leads me to the same conclusions that Cody’s comment led you: Life is short. And for me, this life is all.

   It’s difficult to live with my beliefs, because I am alternately aware that every moment counts and yet still caught up in the everyday minutiae that keeps me from living every moment to the fullest (as I would like to do). This life is all, but there are still bills to be paid and dishes to wash.

   I don’t know if I would seek comfort in religion during a time of tragedy or even great stress (such as your cancer scare). I’ve never found religion to be comforting, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t rule it out if I were ever in such a position.

   I have seen people who are growing older turn to religion. I can’t blame them for finding means of comforting themselves as they face their own mortality. But again, I’ve never found the idea of an afterlife comforting, let alone feasible.

5. Mary:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 9:35 pm

   I’ve never been able to envision an afterlife. This is my life and this is the one I’m trying to live each day, as it comes, to the best of my ability.

   Your story is interesting because I can imagine if I was in a situation similar to yours (or even in a situation with one of my kids in danger), I might try and conceive of a God to save me. But it also would feel false since I simply don’t believe that he/she/it exists.

6. Bishop Rick:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 11:02 pm

   This is a very interesting topic, that probably consumes more of my thoughts than most. In the past as a Mormon, I have had conversations with Catholic priests (my mother is Catholic) and Baptist ministers, just engaging in friendly dialogue. Though I don’t think I would turn to either of the 3 religions for religious comfort, I can see myself turning to any of the three for friendship-type comfort during a time of extreme stress. Probably more over the loss of a loved one than over my own plight.

   I don’t believe their is a one true religion. Science has convinced me of that, but there is still the possibility of a Supreme Entity and until that possibility is proven impossible, I will continue down the Deist path. With that, there is also a possibility of an afterlife, though I honestly can’t see how/why that would be the case. Perhaps reincarnation is a possibility. At the very least, we may provide nourisment to a tree or something I suppose that could be considered a form of reincarnation.

7. Tali:
   July 9th, 2006 @ 11:07 pm

   My father faced terminal cancer at the age of 52. He was raised Catholic, but had never attended a church service with my mom or me, as long as I can remember. I can clearly recall him yelling at my mom telling her that the church was brainwashing us. As soon as my dad found out he was dying he called the minister in to repent and in his words “get right with God”. So in his case being faced with the end scared him into reaching for a religion that he once thought was brainwashing his wife and children.

   His death made me search my beliefs and I poured over every death and religious book I could find at the library and in the end I decided that if there was a God he really didn’t give a damn about who lives and who dies.

   My journey into Agnotism began when my dad passed away. Some people use crises to turn to religion, to comfort them. Instead it did the opposite for me. I feel free being able to live this life knowing that this is all that anyone knows there is. I plan to pass this knowledge onto our children, and I hope when my time comes I will not turn to the crutches of old, but instead embrace the end with dignity and a life well lived.

8. andy:
   July 10th, 2006 @ 6:44 am

   The last time I was ever in a church for purposes of pleading with God was shortly into my coming to grips with the realization I didn’t really believe anymore. My mother had suffered severe complications from surgery and we were told to start preparing for losing her, that her chances were 10% or less. My response to this news covered all the bases: relying on close friends for emotional support, relying on my best friend to take me out to drink away the woes, and going alone into the prayer chapel at the church where I had been baptized so many years before. Hey, old habits die hard.

   In the end, Mom survived, but not without a number of quality-of-life issues that follow her to this day and that will be the death of her before too long I fear. If God had wanted to really convince me, a complete patch-up job on my mother would have been pretty cool. As it stands, though, she was healed as best human hands knew how. It would have to do.

   Since that time, I’ve gotten married and had two kids. With our first, wee Fiona, she contracted a severe viral infection around one year that had me finding her catatonic in her crib when her fever spiked over 104F. We were in a panic and my wife rushed her to the hospital while I went about the business of locking down the house, calling my parents to let them know, etc.

   At no time did I pray to any god. The closest I came was telling my dad, while in tears, that “I didn’t want to lose my little girl.”

   With our second child, “Mr. McGregor” (his name is Ewan, see), we had a scare when he was also ill with a virus around three months of age and they found a heart murmur while checking him over. Off to the specialists we were whisked and spent the next four days in hospital. Once again, no talking to any gods, just holding my wife and talking to my son, too young to understand what the words I said meant.

   I think it would be great if there was a loving god and we were all going to get to go dance in happy candy land when it’s all over. The evidence says otherwise, at least on the “loving” bit.

9. Bishop Rick:
   July 10th, 2006 @ 10:03 am

   Noell,

   On this topic, Let’s say that it is a child that has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and has not been given much time to live. How do we talk to them about death in that situation. I don’t think this was covered in your earlier post on this subject. I’m not sure I could tell my daughter that in 6 months (hypothetical) she would simply cease to exist. I think this is really where religion has its biggest worth, in providing comfort/hope for terminally ill (in this case children) who might be extremely frightened at the prospect of dying.

   I can see myself intentionally lying to my daughter in this case to provide that comfort.

10. Shell:
    July 10th, 2006 @ 12:22 pm

    I can see myself lying to my son in that situation as well, but I would be lying; my grief and fear wouldn’t convert me.

    I’m kind of a Sartrean about my life: I think the most important thing about it is that it’s the only one I get, which means that I have the solemn–and, yes, sometimes terrible–responsibility to make it worth something.

11. mathyoo:
    July 10th, 2006 @ 2:14 pm

    Cody’s argument is just a variation of Pascal’s Wager, and as such has been widely and well refuted. What if Christian’s have it wrong and it’s the Hindus who are right? Wouldn’t that just doom Christians to eternal “damnation” (or whatever the Hindu equivalent is-reincarnation as a lower lifeform?)

    Religion is undoubtedly comforting for a great many people, but it’s a false comfort and I find that worse than dealing with the reality of a situation.

12. Lisa:
    July 10th, 2006 @ 6:29 pm

    Mathyoo’s comment made me laugh so hard that I’m still wiping the tears off my cheeks! That is basically the conclusion that I came to when I was just a lass attending a Catholic school where the nuns suggested that we pray for all those poor souls that didn’t know God the way the Catholics did. Obviously I’m the odd one out in my staunch Catholic family, but when it came to the loss of Dad to cancer I found absolutely no comfort in religion. It was absurd. I was totally annoyed that anyone should think this was part of God’s grand plan. Bullshit. It was an addiction to nicotine that put him in his grave, not God calling him to his final resting place. I found it terribly difficult to express my own grief at losing my dear father while everyone else went around praising God for taking Dad home. Sounded insane then, and still sounds insane now, 15 years later. I have talked with my 6 year-old son about death and since a neighbour felt compelled to tell him about heaven, I explained that heaven is inside your mind. When you have done something that you feel proud about, then you experience heaven. When you know that you have done the wrong thing, then you feel remorse, what some people would call hell. Heaven and hell are not something that you experience when you die. They are the extremes of how you feel while you are alive. No one knows what happens when you die. Full Stop. We don’t know. What is important is that we know we are alive right now and we need to love each other and ourselves so much that we feel the sense of heaven — that we are happy with who we are and what we have done.

13. Gregg100:
    July 10th, 2006 @ 8:47 pm

    I think there is an interesting issue buried in Noell’s post. “Do I feel good about the way I raised my children? Would I wish I taught them something else if I die early?” The reason I think it is interesting is because it raises the questions, “What did they miss?” or “What was the alternative?” I assume she was referring to the fact that she raised them to be agnostic rather than in some form of organized religion.

    Consider some of the features of religions that her children may or may not be exposed to.

    The concept of “sacred”. This could be almost anything from an object (cross), location (Mt. Sinai), temple, word or phrase (“Our Father …”), animal (Hindu cow), etc etc.

    Formalized social rituals that bring people together in shared activities related to the sacred such as the Christian Holy Communion or the Sun Dance of the Plains Indians.

    Emotional involvement in a belief system that can bring solace or comfort in times of stress or sorrow.

    Social cohesion brought about by formal organizations and meetings that encourage interaction among people with similar belief systems and participation in the social rituals.

    World views derived from religions that in effect legitimize such cultural concepts such as individual rights, economic systems such as capitalism and government systems such a democracy.

    There are more but you get the ideas. It would be easy to infer that I am defending some form of religious upbringing but that is emphatically not the case. What I am saying is that these are concepts that religions have had centuries to develop. Agnosticism has the challenge of developing alternatives to a level that one can answer the original questions with an unqualified “Yes, I feel good about the way I raised my children.” and “No, I don’t I wish I taught them something else as I die early”

    I see elements already. I think the Darwin Day ritual of eating symbolic foods during the week was excellent. Wouldn’t it be great if a group of Agnostics were to gather every (I’ll pick January) to meet at an observatory and hear a presentation by an astronomer. Then pick something else for each month. Some places might be arboretums, museums of natural history, etc etc. The idea is to create a social group with repetitive rituals. Maybe a volunteer day at a children’s hospital might be included one month. Solstices are another source for ritual activities. (Just don’t get confused with pagans.)

    Other creative approaches to some of the other roles of religion are clearly suitable alternatives. I think one of the keys is the concept of “Group Participation” for the social side of the development of the well rounded agnostic person. Hopefully there will be a group of friends that can attend a secular wedding when the time comes.

14. Bishop Rick:
    July 10th, 2006 @ 10:55 pm

    Greg100,
    I like your suggestion of “Group Participation” as long as it includes Deists as well:) Afterall Deists are really not that much different from Agnostics. Both believe that revealed religion is the invention of man.

15. Terry S.:
    July 11th, 2006 @ 8:45 am

    Noell,

    I am glad that I didn’t have to deal with illness and death when my kids were young. It is a tough matter to have to take up with young ones.

    Somewhat in line with Gregg’s comments, I believe it is necessary for non-believers to develop strategies regarding illness and death when relating to children. I think that it’s something we just hadn’t really considered along with our own move away from the concepts of god and afterlife. I must admit I have no clear answers.

    I can, however, now relate to the concept of hell. I spent 45 minutes entombed in an MRI machine yesterday. What fun!

    TLS

16. Ross:
    July 11th, 2006 @ 10:14 am

    Wow I only check in now and then and there sure is some heavy mental lifting being done in this forum.

    If I can recommend a great book it is A World of Ideas put together by Bill Moyers where he interviews many of the great philosophers on art, religion, culture, and politics.

    What I sense here is that everyone is trying to tell their individual story and have it mean something, while the religious folks try to relate their life story to something bigger than the individual and have it mean something. Trying to convert people by condemning them to hell only preys on the weak minded who parent’s “battered” them as a child.

    While death is the final moment for such an accounting (except for the LDS, Catholics, & Re-ups) it is often a time filled with sadness for those relatives and so I do think it takes soem time to gain a perspective on another person’s life. Yet even with a better view who are we to judge another person.

    As Joseph Campbell said of Hero of 1000 Faces where he studied all the great mythical religions of the world. His only sadness in having studied all these “faiths” is that he never fully got to enjoy any one of them.

    So whether it is better to be outside looking in or inside looking out is best left to the individual and to that individual’s god. To me the real battlefront is the loneliness found in both death and life.

    Hell is a place without any hope,

    Ross

17. Ross:
    July 11th, 2006 @ 10:19 am

    Maybe Dilbert said it better today – July 11th:

    http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/

    Cheers,

    Ross

18. Bishop Rick:
    July 11th, 2006 @ 6:30 pm

    Ross,

    “Hell is a place without any hope”

    Now that could be an interesting topic of discussion.

19. Kris:
    July 11th, 2006 @ 7:31 pm

    Wow. I’m a first time reader and I’m blown away. I sometimes feel like I’m the only one around who doesn’t find comfort or satisfaction in a religeous belief system. Nice to know that in fact, I am not alone.

    I haven’t had any major life events that might drive me to a god. I am fortunate in that way. I do feel a sense of spirituality, however. It’s hard not to when you witness a birth, or the stars or the love of a dog. But it is a sense of connectedness to the beings around me, not a storybook character.

    I am so looking forward to being a regular reader. Thank you for being and for being here.

20. Rodolfo:
    July 12th, 2006 @ 8:48 am

    A couple months ago I was diagnosed with a life-threatening illness. It came out of nowhere. My whole life upto that point seemed to be going perfect. My family and friends were all doing well and I was finally back in school. Then my doctor told me the news. I couldn’t believe it. But I still remember my initial reaction to it. I didn’t think about me. I thought about my family and friends first. In the past I would always pray to some imaginary god. I couldn’t bring myself to do it this time. I had been on a personal journey of “knowing thyself” since my Mom passed away two years ago. During this time I reviewed my faith in the judeo-christian-muslim god and finally decided that it just wasn’t something I wanted to be part of anymore. So I guess the reason I didn’t turn to a god this time was because it would make me hypocrite. I value actions more than words. I knew that if I contradicted my thoughts by clasping my hands and praying for a miracle my personal journey into re-discovery would have meant nothing. NO I WAS NOT GONNA TURN TO AN IMAGINARY GHOST! What I had to do was ADAPT. I had to ask the right questions. 150 years from now everyone in this world that we know of will be dead. Will they be in heaven or hell? I could care less. But will there still be life elsewhere? Yes. My only other solace if and when I die is the hope that my family will be okay without me and that I did the best I could to learn about the human experience and the mysteries of the universe.

    So when I got the news I decided that my game is not over. I still had plenty of life in me and that I will continue to use what “life” I had left to continue doing what matters to me most. Of course I turned to friends and family for comfort. In fact there were a handful of readers here whose words and insight helped me through. So I took everything in and adapted. It’s what living organisms has been doing for BILLIONS of years. ADAPTING. Our 150 year existence and perceived suffering in the now pales in comparison to the remarkable journey of how we got to be here in the first place.

    I love life with a passion. But now I’ve learned to love my death also. Because out of my death comes new life. In between all that should be kindness not hate. So forget being scared. The key is to Adapt. Then Evolve.

21. Bishop Rick:
    July 12th, 2006 @ 9:08 am

    Kris,
    I am relatively new to this blog as well, and really enjoy it. I hope you stick around. As you can see, there are alot of thoughtful posters who contribute to Noell’s insightful topics.

22. Karen:
    July 13th, 2006 @ 4:31 pm

    My mother just died after years of living bedridden and unable to communicate. It didn’t bring any of us closer to God – in fact, it has driven my father away from his faith. Not angrily – he doesn’t hate God. He just doesn’t believe in the God preached in churches… he leans now toward Einstein’s “mind of the universe” kind of God, where random things happen for no personal reason.

23. CelticBear’s Musings » Blog Archive » Turning to God, Will It Happen?:
    August 4th, 2006 @ 7:47 am

    [...] Just a moment ago I submitted “Some Fresh Looks On Miracles And Emotive Reasoning,” on a couple of new blogs I started reading thanks to the Skeptic’s Circle. One being Agnostic Mom. I just read an earlier post of hers called: “Warning” — http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/09/warning/ [...]

24. aboch:
    January 15th, 2007 @ 4:31 pm

    I’ve read your post and these comments. I suppose I have difficulty, in that, I cannot comprehend that a person ceases to exist. Its just outside my realm of understanding. I consider myself agnostic, yet I’ve never incorporated death into this mindset. Unfortunately, recent events have caused me to do so and I’m left with confusion and no sense of how to comprehend it.

25. CONY konstin:
    September 24th, 2007 @ 9:23 am

    Hello To Everyone Out There

    If you are looking for GOD. I know where he is. He is located in center of Bolivia. The place is called Tahuichi. Tahuichi is where heaven and earth meet. Mecca, the Vatican, Jeruselam are so call holy places. But really they were established by men who raped, murdered and brought mass destruction on humankind. Tahuichi was made by the hands of GOD and not hands of evil men. It is the last place on earth where GOD exist. Go there and you will see GOD.

    Tahuichi Forever

    Cony

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