The Line
July 12, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
I’m sorry, I just haven’t had time for a new post (nor to respond to all your incredible comments from the last one).
Fortunately, this week’s installment of HNN released today and you can read my artlcle, The Line. Come back and share your thoughts. I know you have many!
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July 12th, 2006 @ 10:47 pm
Joseph Smith translated by putting his face in his hat?
No wonder my ex, who suddenly turned to Mormonism a few years ago, doesn’t seem to mention it much anymore. I guess she read more of the stories and realized how absolutely silly they are. I’ve read a fair bit about the Mormon church, but never heard the part about the pseudo-translation.
I’ve heard of saying you’d “eat your hat,” but never of I’ll “poke my face in there and give a good listen. Oh, eh? Is that you, God? It’s me Margaret.”
July 13th, 2006 @ 6:18 am
You wanna tell me about a good acid trip?
It’s called the book of Revelations. Drug use has never been so wildly described. Where’s the movie? Oh, I know…never mind!
July 13th, 2006 @ 6:21 am
Wow, I didn’t know that. Very strange. Not to be too disrespectful, but it reminds me of the sorting hat in Harry Potter. LOL
July 13th, 2006 @ 9:14 am
Just because I wear tennis shoes in public place does not make me a tennis player. Why is what we do in public such a big deal?
“The day after our return home I let Blake have one of our own Book of Mormons which we had stashed away in the garage. He carried it around for days. I had to make sure he didn’t carry it into public places with us. I was concerned.”
Can’t we just all respect each other for our differences and not condemn a BOM carrying child to hell or worse?
I always think of the Indian tribe that gets up every morning and prays for the sun to rise. I could laugh at them too, but they’ve been right for over a thousand years and I’d rather enjoy the sunrise with them than stand back and laugh at them.
Don’t toss that stone too hard as it may ricochet,
Ross
July 13th, 2006 @ 10:22 am
Hey, Ross, I didn’t want my son to carry the BofM around in public because my town is full of Mormons and I didn’t want to deal with pubic conversations it would invite from people assuming we were Mormon too.
I’m not saying I was taking any kind of high-road by preferring to avoid friendly outreach from strangers. I just plain and simple didn’t (and don’t) feel like attracting the attention.
July 13th, 2006 @ 11:36 am
I think you’re doing the right thing. Let him read it for himself. He’s clearly a very intelligent kid, and capable of handling your parents’ side of the story and your side of the story and sorting it out for himself to understand how different perspectives coexist.
July 13th, 2006 @ 12:31 pm
Random Comment: You should write about a new campaign discussing the biological reasons behind homosexuality, Born Different.
July 13th, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Sorry Noell, I didn’t realize that people would push themselves onto you or your kid if he was “caught” outside with a book of Mormon.
If I can be nosy, then what kind of conversations would you have to deal with just because they assume you are a “tennis player”?
Do they really inspect you that closely in Mormon communities and do they know your online persona?
And I thought my college was too PC…
Ross
July 13th, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
Ross–It’s not about people pushing themselves onto us. It’s just about the awkwardness I’d rather avoid when friendly people start talking to us with assumptions that we are Mormon.
They might say, “Hey, son, that’s a really good book you’re reading. Who’s your favorite prophet? Nephi? Well, good for you for obeying God’s commandment to read the Book of Mormon.”
Anyway, it’s all harmless stuff. It’s just a bother I’d prefer to avoid. But I thought about your comment after I responded to you and I realized that it’s really no big deal. So what if I have to say, “Oh, we’re not Mormon. He’s just curious to learn about your religion.”
And perhaps there is a little bit in me that wants to make sure I don’t appear to be a Mormon. Just a natural part of wanting to sluff off all of what I sluffed off.
While there is a big difference between people thinking you’re a tennis player (especially when they base their assumption on something so general as shoes) and people thinking you’re Mormon, you are right: it is a waste of time, life, emotion, direction, education, and lots of other things to be bothering with what people think or assume about me.
To answer your question about Mormon communities: Yes, they really do inspect. Just as singles often look for a ring to decide if a person is likely to be single or married, Mormons and members of highly populated Mormon communities look for signs of whether a person they are associating with is Mormon. The most common way is to look for “garment lines.” These are the lines of the under-garment that temple-going Mormons wear. Once it is decided whether a person is wearing them or not, there are a number of assumptions made about the person based on that answer.
This is human nature. It helps us to have an idea of the viewpoint of the person we are with. This is especially so in places like my town and in Utah.
BTW, my college experience was so NOT PC. Maybe you should have gone to BYU in Utah.
July 13th, 2006 @ 10:38 pm
Noell,
I enjoyed your article. Living in UT I know exactly what you are saying. You really have to experience it to appreciate what you are talking about.
Do you often write about LDS church history? It would be an interesting topic, which reminds me.
We are all waiting for Part IV
July 14th, 2006 @ 6:38 am
This comment is for Andy. Just to clarify. Most Mormons do not know about that stone in the hat version of the translation. That is not the “official” church story. A person would not know that by reading anything published by the church and would never hear it taught at church. Most Mormons are very intelligent, genuine, reasonable, people but they are truly ignorant about the history of their own religion because anything contrary to the official story is deemed “anti-mormon” and is shunned. I know this because I was raised a mormon. The stone in the hat story is true and easy to confirm with a little research but most Mormon’s will not do that research. Don’t assume that your ex is aware of this story.
July 14th, 2006 @ 7:38 am
If you son has any “favorite parts” it might be good to find the parallel stories in a few other religions so that he can see and understand how Mormonism is not special, that most religions use the same stories over and over again. It’s a good way to put a little humility into “religious wisdom”.
July 14th, 2006 @ 8:32 am
I can’t imagine what you have to deal with living in Utah and being a reformed Mormon. Especially since Mormonism is so big on outreach (at least, that’s the impression I get from the guys in suits walking door to door.)
You’re brave and strong for making sure your family is raised according to your own beliefs. And all that while still being sensitive to the grandparent’s beliefs. Kudos to you — it’s not easy to juggle everyone’s needs like that.
July 14th, 2006 @ 10:42 am
Noell,
Again, I commend your courage to deal with this in life, and your courage to talk about it.
I just read your article on Humanist; great piece!
I would like to point out that Ross, unlike almost every other commenter here, but very much LIKE nearly every commenter I have ever had or seen who seems so strong in their convictions, did not leave a website where he can be reached/found.
Funny that.
Ross, consider this; there are plenty of great books written by authors who have admitted to being gay. Many people ignorantly assume that these books deal with being gay. Many of those same people would ignorantly assume that anyone READING said books either IS or is INTERESTED IN being gay.
I know better. I have also considered having my children read some of these books. I personally wouldn’t want to avoid the issue my child carrying the book might bring, but I’m quite certain there are plenty of people who WOULD.
It can be awkward. Period. You don’t have to understand, agree with or even accept it. It’s not your child.
And that, above everything else, is what is most important.
Noell has a responsibility to raise her child HER way, not yours.
July 14th, 2006 @ 11:20 am
Vern, I appreciate that you want to stick up for me and support me. I have to stick up for Ross too, though. Not all blog-readers have their own blog. I remember one of my faithful readers from a while ago, commented on a Christian site about why an understanding of evolution was so important. My reader does not have his own blog. Rather than focus on the issue of evolution, the other Christian readers got on his case for not posting his own non-existent blog.
I don’t expect all my readers to have their own blogs. And I don’t think they should feel like they can’t contribute to a discussion, or even post a criticism, without one.
That said, Ross, tennis shoes and tennis do not have the emotionally charged associations that religions do. There is also a common understanding that non-tennis players wear them everyday. They are not analogous, therefore, it is not appriopriate to make such a comparison.
Still, I will agree with you that if my son really wants to drag around the scriptures with him it is really no big deal.
July 14th, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
Noell, I just found your blog after reading the article. Wow–the LDS world is small. I think I had a class with Israel some 12 years ago–Brian Evenson’s lit crit class.I remember reading Brian’s manuscript with him.
Anyway, I’ve been reading your past posts with a great deal of interest, as my husband and I are in the process of nagivating family relations as unbelievers.
July 14th, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
I guess ideas are not allowed to stand on their own merit here as someone wants to check my background to make sure I’m not a communist or a gay basher.
The “tennis shoes” were to illustrate that the issue is with the perceiver and not the wearer. If they became emotionally charged it was not my intention.
IMNSHO, carrying a BOM in Utah should be like carrying an ipod in San Fransisco, but you are free to do whatever you feel most comfortable doing as it’s a free country for at least another two weeks.
There are plenty of nuts on the internet (and I’m not playing a virtual squirrel this week) so I’d rather remain foreign and let my ideas speak out. If you are a bit insecure then others may seem strong in their convictions. So all I can say is: “Please don’t hate my new purple shoes!”
I guess it’s time to check out for awhile as I’ve raised some hackles, but thanks for the time and some of the thoughtful responses.
Ross
P.S. I know you don’t live in Utah, but we got to keep the nuts and the FBI guessing.
July 14th, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
Ross, you and your new purple shoes may come back and comment as often as you like. I am sure the drama will stop here.
July 14th, 2006 @ 4:18 pm
Ashley, that is wild! I can’t wait until Israel is done working today so I can tell him. He’ll probably email you!
July 14th, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
Oh, BTW, Ashley: Yes, that was Israel. He loved Evenson. Was crushed when he got fired.
July 14th, 2006 @ 8:30 pm
Noell,
You are faced with a juggling act as regards how you balance dealing with your agnosticism, your kids and religion. Fine lines abound. I imagine that things will get easier as your kids get older. It’s tough explaining apparent contradictions with young ones who may not be able to understand how people can believe such diametrically opposed concepts and still love and respect each other.
My wife is Catholic as is her entire Italian family. I had already made my decision about god prior to meeting Jo. She knew from the beginning where I stood and has always accepted it. I have never made much of an issue about it with her family. We were married in the church. I have attended any number of weddings, funerals and other church related events over the years. I kept my council.
I suppose my reluctance to reveal my lack of belief to others has been self-serving to a great degree, but I also had to consider my wife and family. Also, I like and respect most of my wife’s family. I had no desire to sour relations with any of them over religion. It’s a topic that just doesn’t come up.
It has only been the last couple of years that I have been more outspoken about my atheism. But my kids are adults and on their own (more or less.) It’s just less complicated for me now. Again, perhaps it will get easier for you as well.
TLS
July 15th, 2006 @ 12:23 am
Noell,
You are correct. I was overly critical, and assumed too much about Ross.
Ross, I apologize.
Not that it makes it right, but I have been overwhelmed lately by those who critize me from a place of strong convictions, but not quite strong enough to identify themselves, or perhaps provide an email address to which one could respond.
July 15th, 2006 @ 10:54 am
I’m fairly new to this blog, but I’m at a similar point in my life of being an agnostic from a deeply religious family background and now trying to raise balanced children outside of an organized religion. I think that Eric’s comment, “find the parallel stories in a few other religions so that he can see and understand how Mormonism is not special” is also a great way to point out the good moral lessons that you want to pass on. Take it from many angles, different religions as well as fiction and non-fiction books, and obviously from what you see happening around you. Point out that the lovely things that are special about the grandparents are not bestowed by their religion. These are lovely traits that are part of who they are as humans. Religion doesn’t make them special. Who they are makes them special. Their religion does not sum them up.
July 16th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
Vern–No problem! Thanks.
Eric–I agree with Lisa that you have a very good idea.
Bishop Rick–I spent some time reading real LDS history after I left the church officially (yes, that story it still to come. Soon.). I have taken to reading science-oriented and other topics since then. I don\’t have plans to blog about LDS history unless it becomes applicable to a current situation, such as the one in Tuesday\’s article. I don\’t believe I\’ve ever blogged about anything like that before.
I am curious to learn more about Joseph\’s polygamy and find out conclusive his \”relations\” were with the young girl and the married women. I don\’t know how firm the evidence is on those stories.
One last note, Bishop Rick, regarding your question about how to reassure your own (hypothetical) child who is dying. I am at a loss for that one. I think I would be tempted to make something up as well. I am going to forward your question to Molleen of HNN who writes the advice column, Sweet Reason.
July 20th, 2006 @ 11:18 am
I recently read a great book called In Sacred Loneliness/ the Plural Wives of Josheph Smith by Todd Compton. It contains a short biography about each of his wives. Even the BYU FARM website admits it is thoroughly researched. This book was real eye opener for me!