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	<title>Comments on: An Accurate Guess Is Still Just A Guess</title>
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	<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/</link>
	<description>Raising a Healthy Family Without Religion.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David Harmon</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2586</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2586</guid>
		<description>Cool thing to do with your kid, but remember that some lessons just won't "take" until your kid has the cognitive skills needed to deal with it.  Just be patient....  

As far as the ball not bouncing left... That might have just been the way he happened to be gripping and releasing the ball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool thing to do with your kid, but remember that some lessons just won&#8217;t &#8220;take&#8221; until your kid has the cognitive skills needed to deal with it.  Just be patient&#8230;.  </p>
<p>As far as the ball not bouncing left&#8230; That might have just been the way he happened to be gripping and releasing the ball.</p>
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		<title>By: CelticBear&#8217;s Musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Some Fresh Looks on Miracles and Emotive Reasoning</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2561</link>
		<dc:creator>CelticBear&#8217;s Musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Some Fresh Looks on Miracles and Emotive Reasoning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2561</guid>
		<description>[...] She has another post I just read that I found really good, called &#8220;An Accurate Guess is Still Just a Guess&#8221; where she describes a lesson for her son in reasoning, the effect of chance on our understanding of the world, and the ingrained desire we humans have to find patterns in our reality where patterns may not exist. Her blog is deffinitely going in my links! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] She has another post I just read that I found really good, called &#8220;An Accurate Guess is Still Just a Guess&#8221; where she describes a lesson for her son in reasoning, the effect of chance on our understanding of the world, and the ingrained desire we humans have to find patterns in our reality where patterns may not exist. Her blog is deffinitely going in my links! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2444</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 04:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2444</guid>
		<description>Ron: 

Good points.  It's why you see I wrote things like "at least in the small sampling" and "one would expect, in the long term."

My point was simply that one shouldn't attempt to teach a valuable life lesson with only 10 samples, and not use "most of the time" as a measure of success when in the long run one could only expect 1 in 4 guesses to be correct.

I was actually quite interested, however, in the fact that in the first set of data presented the ball never went "left."  Yes, there are tons of explanations for that, from the spin of the hand to the slope of the floor.  It just seems to be a far more interesting question "why did it not go left?"  And actually, if we move the odds to 1 in 3 of guessing it correctly, we find a much closer match (33 1/3 % compared to 40%)

Hey, this is a blog, not a peer reviewed statistical journal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron: </p>
<p>Good points.  It&#8217;s why you see I wrote things like &#8220;at least in the small sampling&#8221; and &#8220;one would expect, in the long term.&#8221;</p>
<p>My point was simply that one shouldn&#8217;t attempt to teach a valuable life lesson with only 10 samples, and not use &#8220;most of the time&#8221; as a measure of success when in the long run one could only expect 1 in 4 guesses to be correct.</p>
<p>I was actually quite interested, however, in the fact that in the first set of data presented the ball never went &#8220;left.&#8221;  Yes, there are tons of explanations for that, from the spin of the hand to the slope of the floor.  It just seems to be a far more interesting question &#8220;why did it not go left?&#8221;  And actually, if we move the odds to 1 in 3 of guessing it correctly, we find a much closer match (33 1/3 % compared to 40%)</p>
<p>Hey, this is a blog, not a peer reviewed statistical journal.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2401</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2401</guid>
		<description>More in depth on the experiment itself:
The four possible outcomes are not known to be equally likely outcomes.  The ball may well have bounced some ways more often than others due to the layout of the floor, the angle of the drop, increasing fatigue of the dropper, inferring patterns from previous drops (legitimate, as it is a fallible human hand doing the dropping)- - and the affect of announcing the prediction rather than writing it down or otherwise keeping unknown to the dropper until the ball has dropped.  As well as other variables - lighting, the ball behaving differently with use/warmth, other activity in the area, distraction, etc.

That Blake was right 40% of the time rather than 25%, is inconsequential.  Played out, he could have spans that he was right 100% of the time, but over the course of a thousand tries (rather than 10) he would most likely be on the 25% mark. 
Beating the odds by 15%, on a test of 10 trials, does little to establish a base line - it showed that he wasn't right 'most of the time' as he had believed.  He could have been 100% accurate on one trial, and it wouldn't have been a significant predictor of 'ability' or future success.

That any of us exist means a single sperm had to beat odds of one in several million.  As Bill Bryson said in A Short History Of Nearly Everything - 'we are all lottery winners'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More in depth on the experiment itself:<br />
The four possible outcomes are not known to be equally likely outcomes.  The ball may well have bounced some ways more often than others due to the layout of the floor, the angle of the drop, increasing fatigue of the dropper, inferring patterns from previous drops (legitimate, as it is a fallible human hand doing the dropping)- - and the affect of announcing the prediction rather than writing it down or otherwise keeping unknown to the dropper until the ball has dropped.  As well as other variables - lighting, the ball behaving differently with use/warmth, other activity in the area, distraction, etc.</p>
<p>That Blake was right 40% of the time rather than 25%, is inconsequential.  Played out, he could have spans that he was right 100% of the time, but over the course of a thousand tries (rather than 10) he would most likely be on the 25% mark.<br />
Beating the odds by 15%, on a test of 10 trials, does little to establish a base line - it showed that he wasn&#8217;t right &#8216;most of the time&#8217; as he had believed.  He could have been 100% accurate on one trial, and it wouldn&#8217;t have been a significant predictor of &#8216;ability&#8217; or future success.</p>
<p>That any of us exist means a single sperm had to beat odds of one in several million.  As Bill Bryson said in A Short History Of Nearly Everything - &#8216;we are all lottery winners&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: dudley</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2358</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2358</guid>
		<description>Like mothergoosemouse said, psychics are a good illustration of this kind of thing. 

&lt;a href="http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;
Cold reading:&lt;/a&gt; He also knows that for every several claims he makes about you that you reject as being inaccurate, he will make one that meets with your approval; and he knows that you are likely to remember the hits he makes and forget the misses.
...

Shermer's books are really interesting.  I especially liked his book Why People Believe Weird Things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like mothergoosemouse said, psychics are a good illustration of this kind of thing. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html" rel="nofollow"><br />
Cold reading:</a> He also knows that for every several claims he makes about you that you reject as being inaccurate, he will make one that meets with your approval; and he knows that you are likely to remember the hits he makes and forget the misses.<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>Shermer&#8217;s books are really interesting.  I especially liked his book Why People Believe Weird Things.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2354</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2354</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  If you don't mind my siding with your son briefly, I find it quite interesting that he was right 40% of the time (and you seemed to have left off result number 9--I assume it was "wrong" as well?)

Given that there were 4 possible outcomes, and you measured in a binomial fashion ("right" or "wrong") one would expect, in the long term, that his correctness would be 25%.  That is, there is a 1 in 4 chance of getting it "right" and a 3 in 4 chance of being wrong.

Your son, at least in the small sampling "Beat the odds."  Good on him!

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  If you don&#8217;t mind my siding with your son briefly, I find it quite interesting that he was right 40% of the time (and you seemed to have left off result number 9&#8211;I assume it was &#8220;wrong&#8221; as well?)</p>
<p>Given that there were 4 possible outcomes, and you measured in a binomial fashion (&#8221;right&#8221; or &#8220;wrong&#8221;) one would expect, in the long term, that his correctness would be 25%.  That is, there is a 1 in 4 chance of getting it &#8220;right&#8221; and a 3 in 4 chance of being wrong.</p>
<p>Your son, at least in the small sampling &#8220;Beat the odds.&#8221;  Good on him!</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2353</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2353</guid>
		<description>An aspect of superstitious thinking that relates to this is how people who feel their prayers or feelings or thoughts alter the world around them crash harder when they 'fail' at it than people who realize the limitations of their influence.

My friend has needed a car badly for a while now - just two days after he put a down payment on one, another car was offered to him for free.  Since the deposit is non-refundable (and he's nearly broke), he's beat himself up over it - feeling he 'should have known', even citing that his sister-in-law had a dream that predicted the second car. 
Frustrating - yes.  Against reasonable odds - thus 'unlucky' - yes.  But a product of personal failure?  NO!

How wonderful that you managed to introduce the subject to Blake, especially after noticing a tendency to feel he can control things outside of his control. 

Positive attitude and confidence does indeed tend to bend things our way - because that behavior is appealing to others and holds back our own discouragement.  There is no loss in the world at this realization.  You gain unpolluted expectations - and save yourself suffering when things don't go your way.

Another friend of mine is dying in the hospital - she is 55, and it came as a surprise to everyone who knows her.  There is little that can be done, we are informed by her family, except they are asking for prayer.  The people who are praying for her have described their feelings about it - saying how unfair it is that my friend should die.  One has told me how much this has 'shaken her faith' because our friend is such a good person.  When reality encroaches on people with a supernatural worldview - they suffer more greatly because they feel betrayed by their magic. 
How much less suffering would be in the world if people were less likely to attribute supernatural causes, and spent their time learning how things really work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An aspect of superstitious thinking that relates to this is how people who feel their prayers or feelings or thoughts alter the world around them crash harder when they &#8216;fail&#8217; at it than people who realize the limitations of their influence.</p>
<p>My friend has needed a car badly for a while now - just two days after he put a down payment on one, another car was offered to him for free.  Since the deposit is non-refundable (and he&#8217;s nearly broke), he&#8217;s beat himself up over it - feeling he &#8217;should have known&#8217;, even citing that his sister-in-law had a dream that predicted the second car.<br />
Frustrating - yes.  Against reasonable odds - thus &#8216;unlucky&#8217; - yes.  But a product of personal failure?  NO!</p>
<p>How wonderful that you managed to introduce the subject to Blake, especially after noticing a tendency to feel he can control things outside of his control. </p>
<p>Positive attitude and confidence does indeed tend to bend things our way - because that behavior is appealing to others and holds back our own discouragement.  There is no loss in the world at this realization.  You gain unpolluted expectations - and save yourself suffering when things don&#8217;t go your way.</p>
<p>Another friend of mine is dying in the hospital - she is 55, and it came as a surprise to everyone who knows her.  There is little that can be done, we are informed by her family, except they are asking for prayer.  The people who are praying for her have described their feelings about it - saying how unfair it is that my friend should die.  One has told me how much this has &#8217;shaken her faith&#8217; because our friend is such a good person.  When reality encroaches on people with a supernatural worldview - they suffer more greatly because they feel betrayed by their magic.<br />
How much less suffering would be in the world if people were less likely to attribute supernatural causes, and spent their time learning how things really work?</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2345</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2345</guid>
		<description>Awesome Post, Noelle.
I love Shermer too.
Since leaving the mormom church, I've become much more logically-based, relying less and less on feelings being the basis for how I solve my problems or look at the world. It's better way to live as I am happier, calmer, and better at living than I was before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome Post, Noelle.<br />
I love Shermer too.<br />
Since leaving the mormom church, I&#8217;ve become much more logically-based, relying less and less on feelings being the basis for how I solve my problems or look at the world. It&#8217;s better way to live as I am happier, calmer, and better at living than I was before.</p>
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		<title>By: mothergoosemouse</title>
		<link>http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/07/24/an-accurate-guess-is-still-just-a-guess/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator>mothergoosemouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agnosticmom.com/?p=177#comment-2341</guid>
		<description>I LOVE Shermer.  And I think the experiment you and Blake conducted (and the resulting discussion) is exactly how I'd like to present such analytical thought processes to our girls.

Also, excellent illustration of hits and misses as it relates to psychics.  No matter how I try to explain that to friends who want to believe, they still persist in wanting to believe.  Which is what the psychics count on, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I LOVE Shermer.  And I think the experiment you and Blake conducted (and the resulting discussion) is exactly how I&#8217;d like to present such analytical thought processes to our girls.</p>
<p>Also, excellent illustration of hits and misses as it relates to psychics.  No matter how I try to explain that to friends who want to believe, they still persist in wanting to believe.  Which is what the psychics count on, of course.</p>
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