Relationships
I need to clear up some misinformation. After publishing my post, When Religious People Teach Religion To My Non-religious Children, Sadie made the following comment:
I have a feeling that, like most instances in dealing with children, your kids did not portray the real picture of the situation. What I imagine really happened is that your kids saw your relatives praying and asked why they were doing so and that is when your sis-in-law made the comment about prayer. I really wish that you would talk to your relatives about what happened (it does not sound like you did) before painting this most-likely inaccurate picture to all of your readers. Kids perception often differs from reality.
Your post about the situation was polite and respectful but still it may have painted an inaccurate picture and your readers took it negatively even though you tried not to portray it that way.
How absurd that someone like me, a skeptic even about ideas that support my own beliefs, did not consider this possibility. Sadie’s analysis never even occurred to me and it seemed she might be right. Frankly, after reading her comment, I still didn’t want to approach my sister-in-law about the situation because it did not bother me so much; I didn’t want to make her uncomfortable and have her associate negativity with having watched our kids when we were so pleased with the experience.
I have a couple principles I try to follow when it comes to relationships. If a person’s actions offend me and there is no previous pattern for the offensive behavior, then there is a high likelihood of a misunderstanding. I believe the healthiest choices in such a case are to either give that person the benefit of the doubt and disregard it, or, if nagging negative emotions arise and persist, to approach the person and give them a chance to explain. More often than not, when there has been no previous pattern of such offending behavior, I find there was just a misunderstanding.
It turns out that this is the case with my sister-in-law. When Sadie suggested I didn’t have the full story, I realized she was probably correct. My sister-in-law has never been one to interfere. I decided it made the most sense to assume that my kids had first asked her why she prayed.
When discussion continued on my blog about what may or may not have happened, I decided to pursue the matter and ask Blake. Blake confirmed that Trinity had, in fact, asked her the question. He said that their aunt was not trying to teach them to pray and he seemed perplexed that I was even asking.
I don’t like that I mis-portrayed my sister-in-law and I think it is an example of dealing with relationships where these types of misunderstandings are likely to occur when there are religious differences.
I also wanted to clear up what I saw as a misconception from Wendy, who left a comment that I accidentally deleted. Wendy seems to think I object to a “sharing of beliefs” (if, in fact, I understood her comment). I welcome the sharing of beliefs. I have always been interested in religions of all types, Christianity or otherwise, and I want my children to know about others’ religious beliefs.
What I have a problem with is when any adult teaches something to a child that contradicts with the parents’ beliefs. This is especially hard in a place where one major religion is the default belief-system and a majority of the people assume that you either do, or should, believe in it also.
My kids practically swim in other people’s beliefs about God and that is okay, as long as people do not cross the boundaries between comparing beliefs to help in understanding, and trying to convert my kids.
Likewise, contrary to what I think Wendy implied in the comment that is forever gone, I do not teach nor allow my children to “make fun” of other people because of their beliefs. But when someone asserts that my child will go to “the worst imaginable hell,” as Blake’s friend did, I think it is helpful to giggle about it with my son when the friend is not there and assure my son that that is absurd. If a person wants to be so insistent with ideas that I believe are emotionally abusive, then I have the right to help my child feel better by lightening the situation. I will not apologize for that.
Also, some religious beliefs, like talking donkeys or a woman made from a man’s rib, just naturally inspires a giggle in someone who was not raised around such stories. When this occurs in the privacy of our own home, I will not apologize for that either. I am sure there are plenty of families who laugh at the ideas of evolution. While I think that is ignorant, I don’t find it at all offensive. It’s just natural.
Giggling in private about such a belief is not the same thing as making fun of someone, which I have never seen my kids do. And there have been plenty of opportunities, considering how often people like to “share.”
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August 16th, 2006 @ 10:14 am
Thank you so much for clearing that up! I feel a lot better. =)
August 16th, 2006 @ 11:06 am
I’m a new reader to your blog. I’ve enjoyed much of what you’ve shared; I’ve found it interesting, enlightening and some of it familiar. I have to admit that after reading your entry, When The Religious Teach…, I too was curious as to whether your children’s recollection was relayed to you accurately or not. It sounds like they are young and maybe couldn’t find the right words to express to you exactly the way the whole thing happened. I’m glad you have it all figured out.
Hopefully, if people are “teaching” your non-religious children their own religious beliefs what they are actually doing is sharing — explaining — educating and not preaching or imposing their beliefs upon them. There’s no harm in helping one learn, but cramming one’s religion down the throats of others is down-right rude and presumptuous. I just don’t know where people get off doing that.
August 16th, 2006 @ 12:17 pm
I assumed that you had communication with Blake about it, since you lingered on description of his reaction to Trinity’s statement.
I felt that Sadie was being unreasonable to distrust their portrayal. She seems to have understood you were going by Trinity’s comment alone.
Sorry Sadie!
Noell – gotta say, I’m pretty disappointed in your initial post now. This new one does a good job of highlighting the irony, though.
To be thorough – we are going to need Aiden’s take – if he starts spouting off about the Nation of Islam you may have additional issues on your hands – ha ha!
August 16th, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
What a breath of fresh air this blog is! In this country today, we’re so surrounded and smothered with religious messages, it’s sometimes hard to imagine there are people out there who reject these messages.
Hurray for you!
August 16th, 2006 @ 1:13 pm
Thanks Ron! LOL! I didn’t mean to step on anyone’s toes. Thanks =)
August 16th, 2006 @ 3:29 pm
Actually, Ron, I did have further conversation with both kids, which I didn’t describe. I thought I had the whole story. I was just missing the one question I should have asked.
August 16th, 2006 @ 7:43 pm
Thank you for clearing that up!
August 16th, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
These last two entries have included discussions about people describing or explaining their religious beliefs, rationale or practices with Agnostic Mom’s children. I find it interesting that there has yet to be a discussion about the converse in which Agnostic Mom describes her family’s beliefs, rationale or practices with the children of others. I understand the policy of not initiating such a conversation with others, especially if it could be construed in any way as an attempt to convert those children. Such a “hands off†policy is as it should be. However, I am disappointed that there never seems to be any interest by others in at least asking just what it is that Agnostic Mom’s family does believe and the rationale behind it.
I have many friends that I have known since school days (including Sunday school) that are well aware that I have been an atheist since I was 16 and not one of them have ever asked me just what is it that I believe and why. It seems that Agnostic Mom is being very generous with her open invitation to describe other religious beliefs but no one is reciprocating. I’m not advocating a change in her policy. My experience says that such a reciprocal policy would be met with a very negative reaction.
My experience also says that others will generally present a very negative view. In other words, they all seem to be quite up on everything you DON’T believe but seldom even allow a sincere, interested opportunity to hear what you DO believe. At least one should be prepared if such an opportunity ever arises.
August 16th, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
I often read this blog but have never commented in the past. I must say that I am extremely impressed with Noell’s integrity, honesty, and openness in dealing with the events of this post. We ALL make mistakes and wrong assumptions, but what separates us is how we deal with it afterwards, and may I say that this shows the quality of the individual that runs this blog.
~jerry
August 17th, 2006 @ 1:42 am
What about the guy down the street who tells his teen-aged daughter that she has no need to graduate from high school since she’ll just be somebody’s “stupid wife” anyway? Does it bother you when a teacher convinces the young woman to apply to college instead?
Or what about a family who thinks girls should get their baby-bearing out of the way by age 21 or 22, marriage or no? Or a family who thinks kids don’t need any vaccinations, ‘since everybody else has them?’ Or the family who tells the kids to plan to get a job by 16 and be out of the house, high school diploma or not, by 18?
What about the family who believes their daughter will be less likely to engage in pre-marital sex so long as she is ignorant of sex, and especially so long as she’s ignorant of barrier methods of contraception?
I suspect you’d have less pain if an adult taught the kids contrary to the parents’ wishes in those cases. Especially in the case of sex education, so few parents do it, fewer do it well — that’s why we gave the task to public schools in the first place (which is an excellent demonstration of the dangers of vouchers and leaving a kids education solely in the hands of parents, with no public school standards).
August 17th, 2006 @ 7:39 am
Ed, I think you’ve taken Noell’s words way out of context. If I understand correctly, she’s making reference to people who impose their religious practices/beliefs upon a child, which has no correlation to ignorant, neglectful child rearing practices, as it seems you’re suggesting.
August 17th, 2006 @ 9:20 am
Noell, I’ve just come to your site and seen this one post, but this post (and comments), with its clear references to previous post(s) demonstrates the heart of the Humanist approach to life. You don’t just show a general open-mindedness in listening to other people and being compassionate, but you listen to others’ criticisms, and revise your viewpoints. This is the way science approaches knowledge, and it is the way Humanism approaches ethics. It is not easy to retract the judgments one has made, especially those one has publicly announced. It takes courage (and dare I say humility?) to admit that one has jumped to a wrong judgment, and to make amends.
August 18th, 2006 @ 8:42 am
Gregg,
I think it is a touchy subject. Most religious folks who try to be accepting of atheism probably feel they will be attacked or in an argument in bringing up religious beliefs of the atheist. This is probably why they do not inquire even if you are nice about being open with theirs. I think the more the atheist brings up their beliefs around them, the more comfortable the religious person will be with discussing it. That is what I have observed anyway.
Good point.
August 18th, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Gregg and Sadie,
It’s been my experience that religious folks get very touchy about the subject of antheism or any other belief system that does not mirror their own. If the subject comes up with a new acquaintance, I quickly learn from their first words and their body language if I can speak freely about my inability to believe or not. The minute a person bears down on me and thinks they know everything, I gracefully back out of the subject. Closed-minded people suck!
August 19th, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
N -
I think Geoff’s compliments are very deserved.
My reaction after the first post was to ‘jump to your defense’, knowing that you are thorough and considerate – - and also knowing how bright your kids are.
I’m surprised that you had more communication with them than was originally stated – and that you still had the conviction that they had been proselytized to. The only thing lacking was apparently the precise question “Were you proselytized to?” (in kid’s terms).
Its a really good example of how people do what they know best to do, and still come up short even when they try to apply a scientific method. In the end we are still capable of missing what’s right in front of us.
For a few days I have felt that your original post – with false conclusions stated very carefully and clearly – was a bit of a mark against the topic of ‘raising a healthy family without religion’. But your response right after, and humility in the matter, does a better job of illustrating your approach.
I think Geoff hits the nail on the head – - this is what science is made of, people fumbling along in as measured a way as possible, with the integrity to change when change is called for by the facts.
August 23rd, 2006 @ 1:47 pm
How you “presumed” what happened with your children is a great example of our propensity for living in our imaginations rather than in reality. It also shows the value of having other people around to help us out of our mentally made up worlds.
What is interesting to see is: You invented in your mind the scene of your children with your relatives. In the invented place you made the details as you chose, not as they were. The natural process is: When we see something in our minds, we respond with emotions. The emotions lead to more imaginations (i.e. “Well, I will tell her!”). We keep going over and over the thing in the theater of our mind, moving from imaginations about the past to the ones about the future.
When we finally do arrive at the future place where we have opportunity to act out what is already invented in our mind, we do so. We feel fully justified for it.
I totally love how you later on took a que from Sadie that perhaps you did not have the full reality based story and went seeking after it. It saved you from further self-personal pain around the matter. That in turn saved your children and your other relatives further pain as well.
What my challenge in life is: Now that I know how much I (as a human being) live in my own made up mental world; my task and mission in life is to tear down my own self made mental versions of reality and go seeking after the REAL reality (the one out here). Moreover, I am on a continual quest to see how my mind works and leads me into the trap of my own thoughts and propensities towards the false power and control of my imagination.
I invite you all to take a look at my blog and see what you think for yourself.
Much peace and love,
Larry