Comments on: Relationships http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/ Raising a Healthy Family Without Religion. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:53:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Larry http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-3085 Larry Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:47:39 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-3085 How you "presumed" what happened with your children is a great example of our propensity for living in our imaginations rather than in reality. It also shows the value of having other people around to help us out of our mentally made up worlds. What is interesting to see is: You invented in your mind the scene of your children with your relatives. In the invented place you made the details as you chose, not as they were. The natural process is: When we see something in our minds, we respond with emotions. The emotions lead to more imaginations (i.e. "Well, I will tell her!"). We keep going over and over the thing in the theater of our mind, moving from imaginations about the past to the ones about the future. When we finally do arrive at the future place where we have opportunity to act out what is already invented in our mind, we do so. We feel fully justified for it. I totally love how you later on took a que from Sadie that perhaps you did not have the full reality based story and went seeking after it. It saved you from further self-personal pain around the matter. That in turn saved your children and your other relatives further pain as well. What my challenge in life is: Now that I know how much I (as a human being) live in my own made up mental world; my task and mission in life is to tear down my own self made mental versions of reality and go seeking after the REAL reality (the one out here). Moreover, I am on a continual quest to see how my mind works and leads me into the trap of my own thoughts and propensities towards the false power and control of my imagination. I invite you all to take a look at my blog and see what you think for yourself. Much peace and love, Larry How you “presumed” what happened with your children is a great example of our propensity for living in our imaginations rather than in reality. It also shows the value of having other people around to help us out of our mentally made up worlds.

What is interesting to see is: You invented in your mind the scene of your children with your relatives. In the invented place you made the details as you chose, not as they were. The natural process is: When we see something in our minds, we respond with emotions. The emotions lead to more imaginations (i.e. “Well, I will tell her!”). We keep going over and over the thing in the theater of our mind, moving from imaginations about the past to the ones about the future.

When we finally do arrive at the future place where we have opportunity to act out what is already invented in our mind, we do so. We feel fully justified for it.

I totally love how you later on took a que from Sadie that perhaps you did not have the full reality based story and went seeking after it. It saved you from further self-personal pain around the matter. That in turn saved your children and your other relatives further pain as well.

What my challenge in life is: Now that I know how much I (as a human being) live in my own made up mental world; my task and mission in life is to tear down my own self made mental versions of reality and go seeking after the REAL reality (the one out here). Moreover, I am on a continual quest to see how my mind works and leads me into the trap of my own thoughts and propensities towards the false power and control of my imagination.

I invite you all to take a look at my blog and see what you think for yourself.

Much peace and love,
Larry

]]> By: Ron http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2995 Ron Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:53:03 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2995 N - I think Geoff's compliments are very deserved. My reaction after the first post was to 'jump to your defense', knowing that you are thorough and considerate - - and also knowing how bright your kids are. I'm surprised that you had more communication with them than was originally stated - and that you still had the conviction that they had been proselytized to. The only thing lacking was apparently the precise question "Were you proselytized to?" (in kid's terms). Its a really good example of how people do what they know best to do, and still come up short even when they try to apply a scientific method. In the end we are still capable of missing what's right in front of us. For a few days I have felt that your original post - with false conclusions stated very carefully and clearly - was a bit of a mark against the topic of 'raising a healthy family without religion'. But your response right after, and humility in the matter, does a better job of illustrating your approach. I think Geoff hits the nail on the head - - this is what science is made of, people fumbling along in as measured a way as possible, with the integrity to change when change is called for by the facts. N -
I think Geoff’s compliments are very deserved.
My reaction after the first post was to ‘jump to your defense’, knowing that you are thorough and considerate - - and also knowing how bright your kids are.
I’m surprised that you had more communication with them than was originally stated - and that you still had the conviction that they had been proselytized to. The only thing lacking was apparently the precise question “Were you proselytized to?” (in kid’s terms).
Its a really good example of how people do what they know best to do, and still come up short even when they try to apply a scientific method. In the end we are still capable of missing what’s right in front of us.
For a few days I have felt that your original post - with false conclusions stated very carefully and clearly - was a bit of a mark against the topic of ‘raising a healthy family without religion’. But your response right after, and humility in the matter, does a better job of illustrating your approach.
I think Geoff hits the nail on the head - - this is what science is made of, people fumbling along in as measured a way as possible, with the integrity to change when change is called for by the facts.

]]> By: Sandy http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2960 Sandy Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:12:07 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2960 Gregg and Sadie, It's been my experience that religious folks get very touchy about the subject of antheism or any other belief system that does not mirror their own. If the subject comes up with a new acquaintance, I quickly learn from their first words and their body language if I can speak freely about my inability to believe or not. The minute a person bears down on me and thinks they know everything, I gracefully back out of the subject. Closed-minded people suck! Gregg and Sadie,
It’s been my experience that religious folks get very touchy about the subject of antheism or any other belief system that does not mirror their own. If the subject comes up with a new acquaintance, I quickly learn from their first words and their body language if I can speak freely about my inability to believe or not. The minute a person bears down on me and thinks they know everything, I gracefully back out of the subject. Closed-minded people suck!

]]> By: Sadie http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2956 Sadie Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:42:01 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2956 Gregg, I think it is a touchy subject. Most religious folks who try to be accepting of atheism probably feel they will be attacked or in an argument in bringing up religious beliefs of the atheist. This is probably why they do not inquire even if you are nice about being open with theirs. I think the more the atheist brings up their beliefs around them, the more comfortable the religious person will be with discussing it. That is what I have observed anyway. Good point. Gregg,

I think it is a touchy subject. Most religious folks who try to be accepting of atheism probably feel they will be attacked or in an argument in bringing up religious beliefs of the atheist. This is probably why they do not inquire even if you are nice about being open with theirs. I think the more the atheist brings up their beliefs around them, the more comfortable the religious person will be with discussing it. That is what I have observed anyway.

Good point.

]]> By: Geoff Odhner http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2935 Geoff Odhner Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:20:29 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2935 Noell, I've just come to your site and seen this one post, but this post (and comments), with its clear references to previous post(s) demonstrates the heart of the Humanist approach to life. You don't just show a general open-mindedness in listening to other people and being compassionate, but you listen to others' criticisms, and revise your viewpoints. This is the way science approaches knowledge, and it is the way Humanism approaches ethics. It is not easy to retract the judgments one has made, especially those one has publicly announced. It takes courage (and dare I say humility?) to admit that one has jumped to a wrong judgment, and to make amends. Noell, I’ve just come to your site and seen this one post, but this post (and comments), with its clear references to previous post(s) demonstrates the heart of the Humanist approach to life. You don’t just show a general open-mindedness in listening to other people and being compassionate, but you listen to others’ criticisms, and revise your viewpoints. This is the way science approaches knowledge, and it is the way Humanism approaches ethics. It is not easy to retract the judgments one has made, especially those one has publicly announced. It takes courage (and dare I say humility?) to admit that one has jumped to a wrong judgment, and to make amends.

]]> By: Sandy http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2933 Sandy Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:39:27 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2933 Ed, I think you've taken Noell's words way out of context. If I understand correctly, she's making reference to people who impose their religious practices/beliefs upon a child, which has no correlation to ignorant, neglectful child rearing practices, as it seems you're suggesting. Ed, I think you’ve taken Noell’s words way out of context. If I understand correctly, she’s making reference to people who impose their religious practices/beliefs upon a child, which has no correlation to ignorant, neglectful child rearing practices, as it seems you’re suggesting.

]]> By: Ed Darrell http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2923 Ed Darrell Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:42:31 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2923 <blockquote>What I have a problem with is when any adult teaches something to a child that contradicts with the parents’ beliefs. This is especially hard in a place where one major religion is the default belief-system and a majority of the people assume that you either do, or should, believe in it also. </blockquote> What about the guy down the street who tells his teen-aged daughter that she has no need to graduate from high school since she'll just be somebody's "stupid wife" anyway? Does it bother you when a teacher convinces the young woman to apply to college instead? Or what about a family who thinks girls should get their baby-bearing out of the way by age 21 or 22, marriage or no? Or a family who thinks kids don't need any vaccinations, 'since everybody else has them?' Or the family who tells the kids to plan to get a job by 16 and be out of the house, high school diploma or not, by 18? What about the family who believes their daughter will be less likely to engage in pre-marital sex so long as she is ignorant of sex, and especially so long as she's ignorant of barrier methods of contraception? I suspect you'd have less pain if an adult taught the kids contrary to the parents' wishes in those cases. Especially in the case of sex education, so few parents do it, fewer do it well -- that's why we gave the task to public schools in the first place (which is an excellent demonstration of the dangers of vouchers and leaving a kids education solely in the hands of parents, with no public school standards).

What I have a problem with is when any adult teaches something to a child that contradicts with the parents’ beliefs. This is especially hard in a place where one major religion is the default belief-system and a majority of the people assume that you either do, or should, believe in it also.

What about the guy down the street who tells his teen-aged daughter that she has no need to graduate from high school since she’ll just be somebody’s “stupid wife” anyway? Does it bother you when a teacher convinces the young woman to apply to college instead?

Or what about a family who thinks girls should get their baby-bearing out of the way by age 21 or 22, marriage or no? Or a family who thinks kids don’t need any vaccinations, ’since everybody else has them?’ Or the family who tells the kids to plan to get a job by 16 and be out of the house, high school diploma or not, by 18?

What about the family who believes their daughter will be less likely to engage in pre-marital sex so long as she is ignorant of sex, and especially so long as she’s ignorant of barrier methods of contraception?

I suspect you’d have less pain if an adult taught the kids contrary to the parents’ wishes in those cases. Especially in the case of sex education, so few parents do it, fewer do it well — that’s why we gave the task to public schools in the first place (which is an excellent demonstration of the dangers of vouchers and leaving a kids education solely in the hands of parents, with no public school standards).

]]> By: ~jerry http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2916 ~jerry Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:18:20 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2916 I often read this blog but have never commented in the past. I must say that I am extremely impressed with Noell's integrity, honesty, and openness in dealing with the events of this post. We ALL make mistakes and wrong assumptions, but what separates us is how we deal with it afterwards, and may I say that this shows the quality of the individual that runs this blog. ~jerry I often read this blog but have never commented in the past. I must say that I am extremely impressed with Noell’s integrity, honesty, and openness in dealing with the events of this post. We ALL make mistakes and wrong assumptions, but what separates us is how we deal with it afterwards, and may I say that this shows the quality of the individual that runs this blog.

~jerry

]]> By: Gregg100 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2915 Gregg100 Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:57:06 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2915 These last two entries have included discussions about people describing or explaining their religious beliefs, rationale or practices with Agnostic Mom’s children. I find it interesting that there has yet to be a discussion about the converse in which Agnostic Mom describes her family’s beliefs, rationale or practices with the children of others. I understand the policy of not initiating such a conversation with others, especially if it could be construed in any way as an attempt to convert those children. Such a “hands off” policy is as it should be. However, I am disappointed that there never seems to be any interest by others in at least asking just what it is that Agnostic Mom’s family does believe and the rationale behind it. I have many friends that I have known since school days (including Sunday school) that are well aware that I have been an atheist since I was 16 and not one of them have ever asked me just what is it that I believe and why. It seems that Agnostic Mom is being very generous with her open invitation to describe other religious beliefs but no one is reciprocating. I’m not advocating a change in her policy. My experience says that such a reciprocal policy would be met with a very negative reaction. My experience also says that others will generally present a very negative view. In other words, they all seem to be quite up on everything you DON’T believe but seldom even allow a sincere, interested opportunity to hear what you DO believe. At least one should be prepared if such an opportunity ever arises. These last two entries have included discussions about people describing or explaining their religious beliefs, rationale or practices with Agnostic Mom’s children. I find it interesting that there has yet to be a discussion about the converse in which Agnostic Mom describes her family’s beliefs, rationale or practices with the children of others. I understand the policy of not initiating such a conversation with others, especially if it could be construed in any way as an attempt to convert those children. Such a “hands off” policy is as it should be. However, I am disappointed that there never seems to be any interest by others in at least asking just what it is that Agnostic Mom’s family does believe and the rationale behind it.

I have many friends that I have known since school days (including Sunday school) that are well aware that I have been an atheist since I was 16 and not one of them have ever asked me just what is it that I believe and why. It seems that Agnostic Mom is being very generous with her open invitation to describe other religious beliefs but no one is reciprocating. I’m not advocating a change in her policy. My experience says that such a reciprocal policy would be met with a very negative reaction.

My experience also says that others will generally present a very negative view. In other words, they all seem to be quite up on everything you DON’T believe but seldom even allow a sincere, interested opportunity to hear what you DO believe. At least one should be prepared if such an opportunity ever arises.

]]> By: Seth http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2913 Seth Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:43:05 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2913 Thank you for clearing that up! Thank you for clearing that up!

]]> By: Noell http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2909 Noell Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:29:20 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2909 Actually, Ron, I did have further conversation with both kids, which I didn't describe. I thought I had the whole story. I was just missing the one question I should have asked. Actually, Ron, I did have further conversation with both kids, which I didn’t describe. I thought I had the whole story. I was just missing the one question I should have asked.

]]> By: Sadie http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2907 Sadie Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:13:23 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2907 Thanks Ron! LOL! I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. Thanks =) Thanks Ron! LOL! I didn’t mean to step on anyone’s toes. Thanks =)

]]> By: Maizie http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2906 Maizie Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:02:31 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2906 What a breath of fresh air this blog is! In this country today, we're so surrounded and smothered with religious messages, it's sometimes hard to imagine there are people out there who reject these messages. Hurray for you! What a breath of fresh air this blog is! In this country today, we’re so surrounded and smothered with religious messages, it’s sometimes hard to imagine there are people out there who reject these messages.

Hurray for you!

]]> By: Ron http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2904 Ron Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:17:18 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2904 I assumed that you had communication with Blake about it, since you lingered on description of his reaction to Trinity's statement. I felt that Sadie was being unreasonable to distrust their portrayal. She seems to have understood you were going by Trinity's comment alone. Sorry Sadie! Noell - gotta say, I'm pretty disappointed in your initial post now. This new one does a good job of highlighting the irony, though. To be thorough - we are going to need Aiden’s take - if he starts spouting off about the Nation of Islam you may have additional issues on your hands - ha ha! I assumed that you had communication with Blake about it, since you lingered on description of his reaction to Trinity’s statement.
I felt that Sadie was being unreasonable to distrust their portrayal. She seems to have understood you were going by Trinity’s comment alone.
Sorry Sadie!
Noell - gotta say, I’m pretty disappointed in your initial post now. This new one does a good job of highlighting the irony, though.

To be thorough - we are going to need Aiden’s take - if he starts spouting off about the Nation of Islam you may have additional issues on your hands - ha ha!

]]> By: Sandy http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2903 Sandy Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:06:17 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2903 I'm a new reader to your blog. I've enjoyed much of what you've shared; I've found it interesting, enlightening and some of it familiar. I have to admit that after reading your entry, When The Religious Teach..., I too was curious as to whether your children's recollection was relayed to you accurately or not. It sounds like they are young and maybe couldn't find the right words to express to you exactly the way the whole thing happened. I'm glad you have it all figured out. Hopefully, if people are "teaching" your non-religious children their own religious beliefs what they are actually doing is sharing -- explaining -- educating and not preaching or imposing their beliefs upon them. There's no harm in helping one learn, but cramming one's religion down the throats of others is down-right rude and presumptuous. I just don't know where people get off doing that. I’m a new reader to your blog. I’ve enjoyed much of what you’ve shared; I’ve found it interesting, enlightening and some of it familiar. I have to admit that after reading your entry, When The Religious Teach…, I too was curious as to whether your children’s recollection was relayed to you accurately or not. It sounds like they are young and maybe couldn’t find the right words to express to you exactly the way the whole thing happened. I’m glad you have it all figured out.

Hopefully, if people are “teaching” your non-religious children their own religious beliefs what they are actually doing is sharing — explaining — educating and not preaching or imposing their beliefs upon them. There’s no harm in helping one learn, but cramming one’s religion down the throats of others is down-right rude and presumptuous. I just don’t know where people get off doing that.

]]> By: Sadie http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2900 Sadie Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:14:22 +0000 http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/16/relationships/#comment-2900 Thank you so much for clearing that up! I feel a lot better. =) Thank you so much for clearing that up! I feel a lot better. =)

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