Protecting Your Child From Discrimination?
I cannot wait to hear everyone’s opinion on this one. I picked up Blake from school and he handed me a flyer for The Good News Club, saying he’d like to join. In case you’re not from a more religious part of the country or world, this is a Christian club. Blake’s thoughts on religion and the gods change from day to day. Whether he decides at any given moment to be a believer in Jesus or not, he is, like me, always intrigued with religion and wants to learn more.
I explained to Blake that this was a club for children whose parents actually believe that the stories in the Bible were all real. I disappointed him with the news that this club was not the right one for him.
And then came the interesting part. He said, “Do you know that all three of the kids at my table believe in God?” Now I was really interested in this conversation. How did he come upon this information? And why was he so surprised?
He continued, “I said, ‘So who here believes in God?’ And they all said they did!”
“And what did you say?” I asked.
“I said, ‘I don’t.’”
I was getting nervous now but didn’t want him to know it. If I acted anxious, or began giving him warnings, would he learn to feel ashamed? But is it okay for an atheist or agnostic child to just bring the conversation up, as many Christian children do? I have always told him that if friends want to talk to him about God, or heaven and hell, that it is appropriate to say that our family doesn’t believe in that. But here he is now, in school, introducing the topic.
I asked him, “Then what did your friends do?” Apparently one gave a loud exhale of disbelief and another let his jaw drop to the table. But that was it. Thankgoodness. So far it’s been a couple weeks there has been no fallout.
So here is a discussion topic for you. Would you give your child a gentle warning that some parents don’t want their kids around people who don’t believe as they do? Do you think it is inappropriate for a child of atheists or agnostics to ever bring up the subject? Or do you let them do their thing because they really should have that right, as children of Christians do, even though it may lead them to a friendless path?
52 Comments »
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Leave a comment
Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>
October 15th, 2006 @ 8:21 am
As with so many things related to belief/non-belief, this is a complex issue. The quick and easy answer from our point of view would be “Yes. Don’t shy away from stating your position.” But as you obviously perceive, doing so can have serious repercussions.
In today’s world I believe that in certain communities at any rate, gays have a less difficult time being assimilated into society than do non-believers. I know a few very religious gays who would shrink from an association with an avowed atheist.
Even at age 60 I generally hold my tongue as regards my non-belief when amongst some family, friends, or work associates. In this very unsettled time and in certain circumstances “coming out” as it were could even be physically dangerous.
That being said, I think we should generally encourage our children to speak their minds. As you note, advising them against doing so can foster confusion, doubt, embarrassment or even fear.
Also, assuming we are passionate about our position, we owe it to ourselves and our brethren non-believers to step out from the shadows and work openly to further the cause of rationality. We should not do so in a manner which puts our children at undue risk, but no such effort can be without risk.
Likewise, we should encourage openness and truthfulness in our children, but we must be perhaps more watchful for what, if any, resultant difficulties they may encounter, and be ready to step in in their defence, if necessary. Keep in mind that repercussions can come not only from other children, but also from teachers,administraters and other parents who may well be strongly religious.
As we know, ideas which do not flow from the mainstream are often strongly, and at times, irrationally opposed. Sometimes we must proceed as if walking on egg shells. It’s maddening, but often necessary. While we want to burst out of the blocks as if in a 100 meter dash, we find, frustratingly, that we must be satisfied with taking a few hesitant baby steps. As we have painfully learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, we cannot expect to cram democracy and western culture down their throats expecting them to welcome it with open gullets. Likewise, we can’t expect died in the wool christians to just turn away from what has more or less defined their existence from day one. And we must expect them to fight us tooth and nail.
TLS
October 15th, 2006 @ 8:55 am
Oh man. My kids are still so young I’m not even thinking about this yet. This post made me sad, because, yuck, there WILL be kids who won’t be allowed to play with my kids. How sad.
October 15th, 2006 @ 9:30 am
I think it’s really, really sad that anyone would have to warn their kids that not everyone approves of atheists, but I also see that you want your kids to have friends. I remember being told that I hadn’t been brought up properly because I didn’t say grace by a new friend at a new school. That hurt but it was England in the 80s and not Bush’s US today.
Good on him for having the guts to bring it up though.
October 15th, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
Noelle,
We can warn our kids but when they are not with us or around us, they will be who they are…themselves.
When I was in Grade 1 I had a close school chum who’s parents were Jewish. My parents were Christians.
While playing with her one day I asked her what she believed about Jesus. She told me she believed Jesus was a Rabbi, a good teacher and not the Messiah.
I told her I thought Jesus was God’s Son & that He was the Messiah.
After that we just kept playing.
I think all we can do is raise them one day at a time, even one moment at a time. We need to allow room for the questions & conversations that they will get into.
I just remembered a little 5 year old that sent his class into a tizzy when one day he told them all there was no Santa Claus. The teacher got terribly upset with the boy but what was the boy to do? He had be told or learned from his parents (I knew them) that Santa wasn’t real. I’m sure the boy was told as well that many children still believe in Santa so don’t say anything. But you know, he was 5 years old. They don’t have adult minds.
I think all we can do is teach our kids about the concepts of tolerance & intolerance. Stay alert to what is happening in their lives and keep the dialogue open. Not always easy I know.
October 15th, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Forgot to mention, I was one of those parents who helped get clubs like the one you mentioned into our kids schools when they were in public school. Those were my Christian days.
They are evangelical in nature as I’m sure you know.
October 15th, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
My sons are teens now but have been raised atheist so this has always been an issue. It will never go away. My oldest son is a sophomore in high school and he still has problems when the subject of religion is brought up but he holds his ground and isn’t afraid to answer. He gets called a satanist, told he’s going to hell etc etc.
Just keep instilling your strong values into your child and they will get through it.
Neither of my sons has been beat up for it thank goodness, but they do get called a lot of names by so called believers.
That part always cracks me up.
The ones who are raised in religion, raised to love thy neighbor, to not judge lest they be judged, are the very first ones to call someone who is not like them, names and told they are going to hell.
Neither of my sons shy away from religious discussion either. My oldest is actually at a friends house last night and today, whose family is Jewish. They know we are atheist and they have no problem with it at all. There are people out there who accept us and my kids, as we are and respect us as long as respect is given back.
October 15th, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
Oh yes! I absolutely knew it would be evangelical!!!! I had my share of mean comments directed at my being a Mormon when I was in high school. We had moved to Kansas, the most Christian place I’ve ever lived (out of L.A., and Michigan in a mostly Jewish town). Some people considered me non-Christian and let me know.
I had no problem being different. But I was also raised to see myself as special and one of “God’s elect.” I don’t want to use that tactic with my kids: I refuse to tell them that we are smarter than other people, or that we “get it” while others don’t. I keep us on a level playing field with others, which may be why Blake was so surprised to find out he was different from the rest of the table.
October 15th, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
I’ve always told my children that all sorts of people believe all sorts of things. This was often the response I gave to questions concerning the truth about a particular religious belief and how things differ between “us and them” as well as “them and them”.
My 12 year-old son has seen a little bit of the flak for saying he doesn’t believe in gods at school because he’s told some kids that. He doesn’t seem to do that anymore though after having experienced close-minded kids that condemned him for not believing as they did. I reminded him that they weren’t bad people, just wrong and judgemental, which wasn’t a reason to act the same way.
My 10 year-old daughter tends to go along so she doesn’t take the same hard stance to tell people she doesn’t believe. They both know that it can be unpopular to hold a different religious belief and it is most evident in what they see and hear about differences between Christians and Muslims since we’ve talked about the problems in the Middle East. I pointed out to them how sad it was that they essentially believe in the *same* god. They see that I don’t talk about a non-belief in god to hardly anyone, even them, so they learn by example that its a subject that isn’t worth arguing (at least in their father’s opinion). These differences can be problematic and it is best to focus conversations and friendships on what we have in common instead of purposefully exploring our differences… at least that’s how things have worked for my kids so far. I hope they don’t develop any issues in the future with our family’s lack of blind faith in a mythology written by our ancestors.
October 15th, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
I feel like a real fence-sitter with this question. Because I am still exploring my own beliefs, I have not gone into much discussion with my son yet (my daughter is still too young anyway). I have told him that many people, even people who share the same religion, have different ideas of a god or gods. I have never taken him to church, but he has access to children’s bibles and stories. He also has access to lots of fiction and non-fiction. While my husband grew up without religion at all and doesn’t know much about religious history, I think that it is culturally important that my son knows the biblical stories and the ideas behind religion. After all, he is growing up in a Western culture. I also want him to know Greek and Roman mythology. I haven’t emphasised that I don’t believe in god. Neither has my husband. On the other side, though, we always tell him to figure things out. Don’t just take an answer at face value. Look into the facts and think about it. Now, what is going to be really interesting is that this Christmas we will celebrate with my family for the first time. We have always celebrated it with my husband’s non-religious family. My family is a whole ‘nuther kettle of fish. They take religion very seriously and it is a huge part of their daily lives. My son doesn’t know his super-religious cousins yet (we live overseas), so I will need to do a lot of coaching ahead of time. What will he say to them? I have always followed my own heart (and traveled extensively) so the aunties and uncles will understand my son’s lack of knowledge of advent wreaths, mid-night mass, and other traditions. I will not encourage him to discuss religious beliefs with his cousins. Maybe in the future, when they are all older and have had more time to know each other and appreciate each other for their individualities. I guess I am scared that they will reject him on this subject and not get to know him for who he is. That is shallow, I know. Of course, they should have more love for him as a cousin, but they are still children, still prone to cliquish behaviour, and he is outnumbered. And he is already an outsider for having never been to a family function before. In answer to your orginal question, Noell, I would encourage him to keep his ideas to himself and to learn to assess the direction of a discussion. Some discussions are better to walk away from … just as some situations are better to escape from. He is too little, too young to fight battles that adults can’t even win.
October 15th, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
My son is getting just old enough that he’s having religious questions. We attended Mormon wards until he was almost 3, but he’s forgotten everything, and claims that “God is just pretend,” though we haven’t specifically told him that’s basically what we believe. He’s already gotten into debates in school about whether it was a meteroite or the great flood that killed dinosaurs, though he had no idea it was a religious discussion.
We try to help him realize that there are lots of different religious traditions and rituals, and that that’s okay. I like your point that you don’t want your kids thinking they are better or smarter for being agnostic/atheist.
I wonder if a good way to approach it is to make sure your kids (and mine) have _something_ to believe in, rather than self-identifying as having a lack of belief. “I believe in making the world a better place, taking care of the earth, and allowing everyone their chance to choose their own path” (or whatever) rather than “I don’t believe in God” or “I’m non-religious.” That way, they have something to stand for just as much as their Jewish, fundamentalist Christian, or Methodist peers. (I’m new to your blog, so I’m not sure if you’re already doing this or not.)
October 15th, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
“ashes”–welcome! I agree with your feeling that we need to give our children something to believe in. While it is easy to do this subtly (there are many things my children know I value, and therefore they value as well, for now) because of actions and conversations, I have done only a little to give them formal words for these values. It is something I think about and am trying to find a natural way of doing it.
This is actually a topic I’ve been wanting to write an article about: teaching our children humanist values. When it comes to giving them moral “lessons” or however you want to handle it, I find myself uncomfortable. I only know how we did it as Mormons. But it doesn’t feel comfortable for me to emulate that type of structured lesson. So, so far now we read books, we converse, we participate in local fundraisers, etc.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, please share them. Like I said, it is something I am exploring and hope to write about, possibly in the next couple of months (perfect for the holidays).
October 15th, 2006 @ 6:37 pm
I think this is an incredibly important post because it brings into focus many aspects of agnosticism and atheism that I contend we are just not adequately addressing. Before I expand on that, let me say that I don’t think Blake’s discussion was much more than a social exploration with the intent of identifying whom is in “the club†at the lunch table. At his age, religion is a lot closer to a mixture of superstition, team fan and club membership. Deep philosophical insight is still in the future. Nevertheless, some level of “choosing teams†has started and there is no one else around to join up with Blake on his team. That being said, I would be very motivated to identify some forms of unifying strategies so he still is on their team. For example: He might have been able respond differently and rather than saying, “I don’t!†he might have said something like, “I guess in America we have a lot of people that believe in lots of different gods like Indian gods, the Buddhist, Islamic, Hindu and Christian gods and some don’t believe in any gods at all.†Now that is a mouthful for a 10 or 11 year old but you get the idea; i.e., we (our team) are still all Americans. He might even extend that with, “My family doesn’t believe in any gods at all.†Some of the kids at the lunch table may even be aware of the Indian gods because of the large Indian influence in the Southwest. It is both broadening, tolerance building and reduces the tendency for exclusion.
At the same time, I feel it is important to start building answers to the question, “What DO you believe?†It is only a matter of time before someone asks it and it will probably be asked with genuine interest and deserves a clean, crisp, unambiguous answer. The answers might sound something like …
I believe it is important that everyone have the right to believe as they chose.
I believe the Universe has always existed and will continue to exist forever.
I believe that people are the result of the evolutionary process.
I believe the best way to learn about the natural world is by the methods of science.
I believe that people should take responsibility for what they do.
Etc.
The list could be considerably extended but there should be a subset of key beliefs that should be instilled early and learned by rote until the children are old enough to start questioning them.
October 16th, 2006 @ 6:16 am
Hi Noell,
I think I’m understanding you about talking about morals and humanist values. From my perspective, assuming a purely materialistic universe, morals and values are irrational. People ought to do what makes them happiest, both short- and long-term. There is some evidence that kindness is a good way to live, also some evidence that unkindness is good. So, yes, I’m thinking there would be some awkwardness and difficulty in teaching what appears to me to be an essentially irrational position.
I’m glad you’re having time for more blogging recently, and I hope things continue to go well with you,
Dan
October 16th, 2006 @ 7:40 am
It’s not that hard to teach humanist lessons to your kids, I’ve been doing this now for the past 13 years.
Science can answer the questions the bible doesn’t give if we just look for them. Science is always changing because the world keeps changing. We keep finding things that explain other things.
As for how to treat each other, it’s simple. How do you want to be treated? It’s the golden rule. Kids are going to be called names, that’s just part of growing up, kids are cruel, sad fact.
But where the lesson comes in is when your kids gets called a name and they want to retaliate because it hurt. Exactly, I always say to them when it happens, it hurts. Don’t hurt others the way they’ve hurt you.
Morals and values are not obsolete, nor are they irrational.
While your children are young is when you have the chance to instill in them all the things you want them to learn. Talking to them over dinner about their day is the best strategy.
It was always; “So and so told me I’m going to hell again today right in the middle of class and the teacher didn’t say anything mom.”
I took these highly stressful moments for them to talk about why the teacher didn’t say anything, why that kid keeps saying that.
It’s fear. The teacher can’t say anything out of fear of losing her job. Religion is a no no topic at school. The most the teacher can do is ask that the students stop and go back on the lesson plan. The kid is talking out of fear for his own salvation based on the horrors the bible has taught them. They fear going to hell themselves so they lash out at anyone who doesn’t have that fear to try and make them fearful like they are.
I’ve always encouraged my kids to speak freely when these types of things happen. If a kid tells them they are going to hell, simply reply with; “I don’t believe in heaven or hell. I will die and that will be the end of it. Thanks for your concern though.”
If called a Satanist, tell the other kid that there is a huge difference in satanism and atheism. Satanists have to believe there is a God in order to believe in Satan. Atheists have no belief of either.
You can’t be there to protect your child from religious freedom discrimination but you can arm them with the words to empower themselves in non-offending ways. In ways that will stop the other kid dead in his tracks and left with questions for his parents to answer.
There are so many of us out here, you’d be surprised how many kids are not religious. My sons have gotten so good at these talks with others at school that they have found so many like them. So many atheists, so many agnostics. Their friends come over our house and for the first time in their lives, they have been able to talk freely about what they believe, not what their parents want them to believe.
We’re not sitting here turning kids against God, or against their parents, but they come into our house and they are honest about what they believe. They hate going to church and their parents won’t let them stop going even though they’ve told their parents they don’t buy the stories anymore. They were happy to find one of my sons who is a freethinker because it set them at ease, it made them fit in with someone instead of lying to other kids and saying they believe just so they wouldn’t get picked on. Because there was someone like them, they could stop being fake and it was a relief to them. My oldest, 15, has about 7-8 friends who for the first time, found they can be themselves.
I didn’t mean to write such a long comment, but this subject has always been a priority for me, arming my kids with the words to empower themselves, to be who they are, and in doing that, they have found others just like them.
October 16th, 2006 @ 8:47 am
Dan–I have always respected you for the fact that you ask questions and try to understand before you verbalize judgements against that which you disagree. So I am surprised by this latest comment and I am trying to figure out if you are being sincere or not.
You must have misread me. I didn’t say I had trouble talking about moral and humanist values with my kids. I’ve been talking about them like crazy on this blog. Do I have trouble? Uh, no. In fact, I believe I said that it comes naturally in conversation with my kids, in the way we live our lives and treat people, along with the books we read. I think my kids know our values.
What I did say is that the trouble I have is with trying to implement a format I am comfortable with when it comes to more formal “lessons.” In the Mormon church they handed ten lifetimes worth of lessons to us with what to say, what resources to use, etc. It made it very easy for me as a mother. I don’t have those resource now, plus I don’t really feel inclined to use that type of formal format anyway.
While my kids feel our values, sense our values, and could probably state many of them, I think I have been lacking in “giving them the words,” for all of them in a more proactive way, as Gregg100 stated it. At least compared with the way that I was raised.
So please, Dan, do not take this to mean it is difficult to teach them values. I think you must have just misunderstood. I am just trying to find a comfortable format.
Also, I have to challenge you on your statement that moral values are irrational in a materialistic world. I understand why you might think this, but it is so wrong. Our values are based 100% on rationality. Religion, while many of its values are rational, does not actually base its values on rationality. Its values are based on the words of ancient writers, supposedly by the command of a god. It has nothing to do with rationality whatsoever. Humanists reject that idea and we base our values only on what makes rational sense by what we have observed.
October 16th, 2006 @ 9:46 am
I have an 8 year-old son and we’re lucky enough to live in an area of the country that is liberal and relatively non-religious. However, when he was in Kindergarten, we had an unusual conversation in the car on the way home. Out of the blue he said, “I know who God is”. I kept my eyes on the road and said, “Really? Who is God?” And he said, “He’s a man who sits up in the sky and will do things for you if you ask him to”.
Needless to say, I almost drove off the road! But, I remained calm and asked him where he heard that. He told me which of his friends told him and, knowing the little girls’ mother, I wasn’t suprised that she told him that.
I firmly, but gently told him that God was NOT a man who sat in the sky and granted wishes. That his friend believed that, but we know it isn’t true. When he asked who God was, I just said, “God is nature. God is our family. God is not a person or a thing, but it is everthing around us”. It was the best I could do back then, not having fully formed my opinions on Agnosticism. But it worked well!
Now that he’s older and in 3rd grade, he doesn’t ask about God much, but I know it is probably discussed at school with his friends. I guess I would tell him that if the subject comes up, to just tell other kids that our family doesn’t follow any religion, we’re fine without it. I’m sure he’ll be pressed on the issue and I’m sure he’ll ask me about it again some day.
It’s hard when they’re this young. It is like a club and I wouldn’t want him ostracized for not being religious, but I don’t want him to fake it either.
I think as they get older, like high school, it’ll be easier for them to stand their ground. Especially if they have a solid foundation from home about their “beliefs” or “non-beliefs”.
I was brought up without any religion at all, and I never had an issue with anyone about it. Then again, I live in a liberal, non-religious area, and my son goes to the same school that I did, so hopefully, he’ll have the same experience!
Noell – Coming from a totally non-religious background, I find your question about coming up with “formal moral lessons” for our children very thought-provoking. I guess since you had a more “structured ” religious upbringing, you feel the need to do the same for your children. Since I didn’t have any structure with regard to “moral lessons” at all, the thought has never ocurred to me to teach these lessons to my son in any format. I, like you (and like my parents with me), just lead by example and discussion. I guess I’ve always felt that any formal “lessons” would be too much like religion or something. But, now that you mention it, I’m going to put some more thought into it. Thanks for bringing that idea up…..
October 16th, 2006 @ 11:45 am
Noelle, I love your posts and articles. Along with that I enjoy the conversations that take place in your comment section.
I was just thinking recently about how things have changed for me. Our children are now adults. Both unmarried, but that is likely in their future & it’s likely they will have children and I already find myself wondering about a grandchild asking me about God. Hey, I asked my grandparents.
I’m at another phase in my life I guess. There was a time as a Christian I looked forward to those little grandchild hands in mine & leading them to an understanding love of God. Now, as an ex-Christian I find myself thinking, Wow, things have changed. Time for a new game plan.
October 16th, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Anne gives interesting insight in that, from a non-religious background, it never occurred to her to have a specific format to teach beliefs. Rather, it came about naturally through example and conversation.
I like the thought of that approach for my son. He brings up Jesus or God of Mormonism every once in a while, but at his age, I feel like if I bring it up, he’s not going to want to listen anyway. So far, I just let it come up when it comes up. Once it was, “I don’t know who Jesus is,” and I answered, “Neither do I,” because that’s where I was at the time. He saw that even grown-ups don’t know everything. Another time it was, “Why aren’t we Mormon anymore?” I answered, “Because they teach that boys are better than girls. Do you think that’s true?” Thus, I reinfornce that he can evaluate statements made by others. Then he said, “Can we not talk about this anymore?” At his age (4), he doesn’t need much other than example and the occasional, short conversation.
At one point after leaving Mormonism, I really wanted to find another (liberal, non-literal) church so my son would learn morals, etc. But when my Mormon friend explained that to her atheist husband, I was so embarrassed! It was like saying since he was atheist and a non-church goer, he must not have learned morals! He explained calmly that there are lots of ways of learning morals, and it doesn’t require religion. I realized he was right.
But I’m with you, Noelle, that I’m still concerned about _how_ to teach my son. And I’m still figuring out what.
October 16th, 2006 @ 2:50 pm
I thought Zoe’s comment was interesting because she now feels the desire/need for an agnostic or atheist alternative to teach to/enjoy with grandchildren and ideally it should have the appeal of an all-loving, omnipotent, benevolent God to watch over them; a very tall order indeed. Why should it be such a tall order? At least one answer is that the religious approach has been fine tuned to appeal to the masses. It is simple and it is comforting until the person is old enough or motivated enough to think a little deeper.
Let me forewarn you, I’m not going to recommend an alternative since I feel it is too dependent upon the immediate context. However, I will relate some recent experience that points out some of the challenge.
I put together a class called “Science For Seniors†and presented it to a group of mobile home park residents two times. The plan was to target about 90 minutes. My intent was to talk science but I will admit to presenting a little hint of atheism at one point. For example, I quoted Stephan Hawking when he said, “But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place then for a Creator?â€
Now these were senior, mature, people being presented with science and when I spoke in very general terms about some of the concepts of relativity (curved spacetime) and quantum mechanics (everything appears to be made up of strings vibrating in 10 or 11 dimensions of spacetime) and evolution where carbon dating is being used to estimate the ages of fossils the whole discussion was met with complete disbelief and almost contempt. I quote one elderly woman, “If you think it is a stretch to put our faith in Jesus, whatever it was you were saying sounds a lot crazier!†A creationist in the audience sincerely believed the Earth is on the order of 9000 years old and wanted me to provide proof that all that “carbon dating stuff†worked. Quite amazing to me.
These audiences were intellectually getting an idea of what I was saying but felt that it was just as much an act of faith as any religion. Especially when some of the theories cannot be experimentally tested as is the case for much of string theory.
Getting back to teaching children the nonreligious “storyâ€, I say again, we have much work to do to put together a realistic, plausible, acceptable, and desirable story geared to the various levels of our target audiences. Even a senior audience has, at best, a very difficult time handling the reality. Without a solid grounding in the physical sciences, the concepts are just too difficult and counterintuitive and that will take some serious effort to popularize. Is it important that the public know such concepts or is it enough to just say, “I have faith in science and its methods.â€? You tell me.
By the way, I have since taken the presentation apart and plan to completely revise it and try again.
October 16th, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
Hi Noell
I have been a reader for a while but never commented but I find that i have read recently a post on another blog about an atheistic rational for morality and ethics and such as you mentioned that this was something that you had only the mormon perception of you might find it interesting.
http://doubtingthefish.wordpress.com/2006/09/22/morality-beyond-belief-the-ethics-of-individuality/
Also as to from the ashes’s comment about defining your self relative to religion ie a non-believer or what ever it may pay to look at the Bright’s movement, http://www.the-brights.net/
where they are trying to introduce the use of the term bright to refer to ones who have a naturalistic view (ie no supernatural), there is some good information in there i think even if you are not to keen on the name (and i have seen some agnostics/freethinker/humanists/atheists scoff at the term a bit – though not sure how i feel)
October 17th, 2006 @ 7:00 am
I’ve been reading your blog for awhile now, but this is my first comment. We’ve been dealing with some of the same issues here. We live in a very conservative, Christian area, where the culture is just steeped in Jesus. We have relatives nearby, and they are conservative evangelicals. In the midst of all that, we’re trying to raise two nice secular humanists.
No one has told our kids they’re going to hell (yet). My oldest is in second grade, and he has already had debates with friends about evolution vs. creationism. He has friends next door who are Lutherans, and who keep trying to convert him. He has handled that pretty well, telling them he can read about that stuff anytime he wants to.
I expect more battles in the future though. People around here don’t like to hear religion challenged.
Partly out of frustration with the environment here, we joined a liberal UU church recently. There are a lot of atheists and humanists there, and all of the members have a liberal outlook. It’s a relief to have a community where we can talk about these issues honestly, and mentioning that we have a church makes the fundies back off a little more willingly. The kids are learning about Christianity and other religions, but none of these religions are being presented as the literal truth. (They already know their parents’ opinion on that!) I think this will give them a better understanding of what religion is, and what its failings are. If we are successful, we will have inoculated our kids against fundamentalism by the time they’re adults.
Even though I’m happy with the UUs, I sometimes wonder whether joining a church, when I honestly don’t think religion is a good thing, was a cop-out. It’s so unlike any other church, yet it goes by the same name, and mentioning that I have one seems to soothe the fundies, which can’t be an entirely good thing…
October 17th, 2006 @ 10:08 am
Noell,
My apologies if I misunderstood you, or if I came across as discourteous in any way. The phrase I was looking at was: “When it comes to giving them moral “lessons†or however you want to handle it, I find myself uncomfortable.” I’m hearing now that it’s the format with which you are uncomfortable.
Here’s something I don’t understand: why the uncomfortable nature of the format? If our children ask something or need to be taught something, and we assume a purely materialistic universe and the Scientific Method, we give them an answer. If they ask “why is the sky blue?” we can say “it’s because the air reflects blue light better” (at least I think that’s the answer), or we can say “I don’t know, let’s look it up.” Why would humanist values need a different format? Please explain, I don’t understand.
I haven’t seen a rational system for morality or values that assumes only a material world and makes use of all the evidence that would relate. If anyone would like to describe one, or point me to one already online, I’m all ears (at least for today).
I think we had a good start on this with “Evolutionary Psychology and Materialism As A World View”. Shall we return to that thread?
Again Noell, my apologies, and Peace to you,
Dan
October 17th, 2006 @ 11:37 am
Noell,
I believe we were in the same ward at BYU and you and your hudband invited my wife and I over for dinner. We lived just a couple doors down from you. I love your site and am glad I found it epecially the entries on leaving the church. There are a lot more people out there going through the same thing. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
October 17th, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
Hey Dan! I am so glad to hear your explanation! Your first comment read quite flippant to me, but that seemed so out of character for you that I didn’t know what to make of it and I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now that you have restated my own statement, I completely see exactly why you read it that way and that you weren’t being flippant at all.
If there is anything I have learned from blogging it is how easy it is to miscommunicate and misunderstand. No matter how clear I try to be, I often realize I failed when I later get feedback. I misread Ron earlier as well!
Anyway, yes, we did get a start on the rationale for morality, but that conversation went in so many directions, and it is one so in depth that I cannot do any more with it right now. I just don’t have the motivation to delve into it any time soon! If anyone wants to lead that discussion in comments here, or if you do have links to a good article on it, let us know.
All I will say now is that a rational approach is the only approach a non-religious person has when formulating values and morals. We may come to some different conclusions of where our reason leads us on certain details, but overall, an overwhelming majority of us do think it is quite rational and beneficial, both to ourselves and society, to have moral values.
Dan, thanks for taking the time to explain the last comment. As I said before, I have a lot of respect for you and the way you have commented on this blog, considering our varying beliefs. BTW, I remember that you asked me a question on an earlier post. I don’t remember the topic, but I’ve been meaning to invite you to give me your take subject first. If you are interested in that, feel free to go back to that posting and do so there. It will help narrow the subject down for me. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, let me know!
October 17th, 2006 @ 5:08 pm
Hi Noell,
It sounds like everything is good between us, then, and I’m glad for that, too!
Was the question you were remembering comment #12 from here: http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/02/evolutionary-psychology-and-materialism-as-a-world-view/
or was it perhaps this from comment #18 at: http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/10/02/freethought-media/
“At some point we have to make decisions about what we believe, even when there is little evidence.†I’m interested in hearing more about this, if or when you have time.
Were either of those what you were remembering?
Peace to you and your family,
Dan
October 17th, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
Rob–How funny! Your name is familiar but I can’t place you. What is your wife’s name? Do you have photos online to trigger my memory?
I love getting reaquainted with the past. Thanks for speaking up!
October 17th, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
Dan–I was thinking of the second one where you quoted me:
“At some point we have to make decisions about what we believe, even when there is little evidence.†I’m interested in hearing more about this, if or when you have time.
Along with your comment:
So, am I hearing you right that you’re totally cool with belief systems as long as they don’t limit other people’s freedoms, take into account all the evidence and fully acknowledge the Scientific Method? If so, then we’re much closer in our approach than I previously thought.
Yes, I think this is right. There are still plenty of things unanswered as well as many things up for debate. Evolution is not really up for debate among scientists. The evidence is so overwhelming that I do expect people to educate themselves on it and accept it. But for all the many other things where that we still don’t know about, we have to make a choice of what to believe. The god-question is one. It really doesn’t bother me if people believe in an intelligent designer, a fatherly and involved god, or no god at all. But I do think we need to be flexible in these beliefs that have no evidence so that if a new plausible theory comes along that contradicts with our beliefs, we’re not up in arms and rejecting it. We should acknowledge which beliefs had credible evidence and which do not.
I have talked a lot about Intelligent Design. I don’t have any gripes with people believing in an intelligent designer. My gripe is with those who want to teach it in Biology because it is not a science. Science is about observation and evidence and so far, we have none of either for a designer.
What are your thoughts to this?
As for the other comment you left way back when: Yes, I had huge intentions of responding to that one! I thought you had good reasons to question those quotes and I wanted to talk about it as well as respond to the critiques of two others. I got overwhelmed with all the medical stuff, though, and that is a topic I want to put on hold. Maybe someday I’ll get back to that!
October 17th, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
I’ve got two answers for your question.
One is from the perspective of a UU Pantheist who yearns for a world where we are *really* free to believe as we will…we should teach children not to ever be ashamed of feeling differently than the pack. It is gift to be free to be an individual. The only way to erode the hold of christianity on this country is to be open about our individual beliefs and not be afraid to voice them. I wish for my kids to not understand why they should keep silent about their beliefs.
The other perspective is from a mom who understands that above all other wishes, the happiness of our children is paramount. If I can do anything to minimize stress in their lives, I wish to do it.
But ultimately, I have to believe that the first supersedes the other. Our children will never really be happy if they feel afraid to voice their opinion. Why NOT be able to ask their friends if they believe in god and answer that they do not believe in him/her? My 8 year old had a very similar situation to Blake last year. One of her friends told her she was going to hell because she didn’t believe in god. I told my daughter that while I couldn’t prove anything to her or offer her more than my opinion, I would guarantee her that there was not a hell, and especially not one for her.
I’ve told them that their beliefs are probably not what most of their friends believe. I’ve also told them it’s their own decision and they will make up their own minds, but not for a long time. I told them that it is up to them whether they should talk to their friends about god or not.
It’s not easy, but I really think if we, however inadvertently, teach our kids that atheism (or any believe we have that is out of the mainstream) is something to be ashamed of, then we do them a disservice in the end.
Never easy…
Jen
October 17th, 2006 @ 10:21 pm
Yeah, What they said. All of em. Except maybe the first one. That guy’s a bit nutsy, don’t you think?
TLS
October 18th, 2006 @ 6:44 am
Noell,
I agree that there is lots of great evidence for evolution, and that it’s a good scientific theory to explain life on Earth.
I also agree that people should be free to think/believe what they want, it’s when they want to bring it into the public schools that problems arise.
Now, here’s an example of a gripe I have. I’ll use a school setting, but I think it applies to our larger society as well: Suppose a student is taught in Biology that humans are essentially animals. Next, in American History & Government she learns about slavery. Usually, this history is taught with the value judgement that it’s wrong to enslave humans, because they are not animals. So, here we have a double message: humans both are and are not to be treated as animals.
At this point we can introduce the value that there is something special about humans. This value is not based on physical evidence (or should I say I haven’t seen any), rather, on faith. And the same student may well be taught that public schools are not about faith, that it’s a private matter for the family or individual.
So there’s a gripe I have, thanks for the space to post it.
Peace,
Dan
October 18th, 2006 @ 8:27 am
“So, here we have a double message: humans both are and are not to be treated as animals.”
In Biology class, students learn that humans are animals and where humans fit in the family tree of all living creatures. How did you go from that to the statment “humans are to be treated as animals”? That is a strange conclusion to make. Are we supposed to read that as “humans are animals, so humans are to be treated badly”? There is a distinction to be made between science and statements about ethics. The way we treat people and other animals is a topic in ethics and morality. It is an important issue, but they don’t really fit into the Biology curriculum.
“At this point we can introduce the value that there is something special about humans. This value is not based on physical evidence (or should I say I haven’t seen any), rather, on faith. And the same student may well be taught that public schools are not about faith, that it’s a private matter for the family or individual.”
The belief that humans have worth and are special is a value judgement. Topics of worth, values, ethics, and morality are discussed in school. They are discussed all the time in History classes, Social Studies classes, Literature classes, etc. You’re implying that public schools are delivering a “double message.” What exactly is your gripe?
October 18th, 2006 @ 9:11 am
Richard Dawkins was on the Cobert Report show last night. He was saying that all of us are atheists when it comes to believing in Zeus, Poseidon, Thor, etc. And that some of us just go one God further. (Sam Harris likes to say it as well) So, I am thinking if I could use this concept to introduce the idea of god to my son (he is only 2 now) before anybody else gives him an “explanation.” I would tell him stories on how ancient people heard a thunder and couldn’t explain how it occurred in nature. So they made up a supernatural being that lived in the sky. Then they came up with other gods: Sun God. Music God. Poetry God. Wine God. Prophecy God. Plagues and Healing God. God of War. God of Holding Up Heavens. The more gods the better. There is an excellent resource on numerous gods from different pantheons at http://www.godchecker.com/ (and saints, too!)
So, when my son is asked whether he believes in God, I would expect him to ask in return: “Which one?”
Yes, my approach is to teach my son to take the concept of God lightly – no reverence, no trepidation, no fear. Just like another made up story. Do you think it will work?
October 18th, 2006 @ 11:14 am
Olga, I like that plan. Thanks for the link. Great site!
October 18th, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
Sounds good to me Olga.
October 19th, 2006 @ 11:30 am
In theory your child should be able to say he doesn’t believe in a god just the way any Christian child at his table should be able to say that they do. Unfortunately he will quickly learn about the hazards of his viewpoint. Every child wants to fit in and no parent wants their child to be the odd one out, but I think it would do more harm than good to encourage your son not to share his beliefs. I know too many people who go to church because their families or friends do, or because they don’t want to stand out in the community. If your son grows up believing that his views are less worthy than the views of his peers he is risking becoming a follower rather than an independent thinker. Best of luck dealing with the situation!
October 29th, 2006 @ 8:05 am
As a teacher of Bible / Apologetics in a Christian school I do not automatically assume my high schoolers are believers just because their parents are. I do encourage them to be what they are, regardless of the consequences. “Know thyself” is a good way to live. If a person is not a believer they should lay their cards on the table, and vice versa.
As a Christian I refuse to hate, hurt, or otherwise alienate anyone who does not see things my way. I realize that places me into a minority, but hopefully that trend will change. After all, it is love that shows the Truth as most attractive.
Please forgive my if I am being presumptuous in commenting here.
October 29th, 2006 @ 8:05 am
As a teacher of Bible / Apologetics in a Christian school I do not automatically assume my high schoolers are believers just because their parents are. I do encourage them to be what they are, regardless of the consequences. “Know thyself” is a good way to live. If a person is not a believer they should lay their cards on the table, and vice versa.
As a Christian I refuse to hate, hurt, or otherwise alienate anyone who does not see things my way. I realize that places me into a minority, but hopefully that trend will change. After all, it is love that shows the Truth as most attractive.
Please forgive me if I am being presumptuous in commenting here.
October 29th, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
Twice…err…thrice.
October 30th, 2006 @ 10:28 pm
Hello Noell!
You know, I’m open minded to the idea of a format for teaching your children. But here is my thought. This may seem to “simple” but when teaching Morgan, and now Dylan, the ABC’s, we did it in conversation, reading books, and looking at the world around us. I did not sit either of them down with a format on a scheduled time and day. I don’t think they would have enjoyed learning it as much. So maybe having a format would be to much structure!?! Maybe overthinking it might scare them away? I don’t know, what do you think?
Christy
October 31st, 2006 @ 5:42 am
Hi teher! first time on your blog, i like it a lot!
My view is that warnings are not usually necessary,
while you have to warn your kids about the danger of fire and chemicals in the house you dont need to do the same about people’s views and so on.
I think kids are usually smarter and quicker than us, yours probably figured it all out from that single episode and now knows that he’s in a minority and some of the kids consider him a freak. He’ll cope with it and if he doesn’t I’m sure you’ll help him out great. It’s very important to go through some experiences with no warnings or prejudice, coz the effect of events on you is stronger and necessary to go through it critically.
It’s not a question of outing or hiding, kids dont think in those terms fortunately, it’s just confrontation and most of the times it just happens some day, without planning it.
This said, every kid is a single different universe and this approach might not work with everyone
October 31st, 2006 @ 7:29 am
Christy–I think you might be right. I go back and forth between what you say and a feeling that maybe they need more. Of course, I always over-think everything.
Jason–You are absolutely welcome here!
November 2nd, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
Noell,
I’ve been reading your blog for a little while now, but this is the first time I’ve commented (I think)
I had a blog post that seems kinda related to this topic. http://terrarist.blogspot.com/2006/01/evolution-in-alabama.html
I was pretty much raised in a very similar background to what you’re now doing with your kids. I think it is the only responsible way to raise children. I remember many conversations similar to what you’ve had with your children. One of my favorites was asking my mom if god was real and she answered me with, “What do you think?” There is no better answer for that question, in my opinion. I think if you arm kids with the tools to think for themselves, they’ll be just fine. It sounds like you’re doing just that.
I won’t say too much about this post because I think the rest of the commenters have done a very good job, and I would thusly just be reinventing the wheel, but I just wanted to share that little story with you.
November 7th, 2006 @ 7:12 am
Hi Noell,
Glad you site is up and running again. I plan to reply to dudley (and others, if any) here in this comments section. If you would rather I reply in some other place or website, just let me know.
Peace,
Dan
Hello, dudley
Thanks for the questions. I’ll attempt to reply.
‘How did you go from that to the statment “humans are to be treated as animalsâ€?’
Well, you are correct that, based solely upon the physical evidence, humans are part of the family tree of all living creatures. We are classified as vertebrates, mammals, primates and there is no reason to classify (or treat) us as anything different. In Social Studies, humans are usually classified as something beyond animals. So, we can say that humans both are and are not classified as animals. Does that help?
“There is a distinction to be made between science and statements about ethics.”
Right. I’m with you there. Hence, in my opinion, we ought not to make ethical statements based on science.
“The way we treat people and other animals is a topic in ethics and morality. It is an important issue, but they don’t really fit into the Biology curriculum.”
Right, and I don’t think they fit well into History either, unless we start appealing to faith.
“Topics of worth, values, ethics, and morality are discussed in school.”
Yes, and usually with the overtones that things like racism are wrong. I think those overtones require faith. One example of my gripes, then, is that schools are often ecouraged to appear as faithless, when indeed they are not.
Thanks again for the questions
Peace,
Dan
November 7th, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
Dan,
“In Social Studies, humans are usually classified as something beyond animals. So, we can say that humans both are and are not classified as animals.”
Social Studies, by definition, is the study of human interactions. How are humans being classified as non-animals in Social Studies class? I don’t see where animals even come into the discussion. This is where you claimed that schools were delivering a “double message”. What is the double message?
“Hence, in my opinion, we ought not to make ethical statements based on science.”
No one is being made to make ethical statements based on science in school. Science should be taught in Science class. Ethics and morals, among other things, can and should be discussed in Literature, Social Studies, etc.
“One example of my gripes, then, is that schools are often ecouraged to appear as faithless, when indeed they are not.”
Schools are not required to be faithless. They can and do discuss religious faith. In English Literature, portions of various religious texts are often assigned as required reading. Many schools have a class called Comparative Religions where faith is all they talk about. However, controversies can arise, for example, when religion is being presented as science in Biology class. Nobody is encouraging or claiming that faith is not to be discussed in school.
Maybe misunderstanding is part of the problem. For example, the concept of animals and non-animals seems to be a running theme in all of your concerns, even in History class. Also, I don’t understand your claims of public schools delivering a “double message”.
November 9th, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Hello! I’m a little late to the game here, I just found your blog and this post really hit home with me.
I am agnostic and was raised in an athiest family. Very young I realized that I was “different” and like most kids, I wanted to be accepted. For a long time I got very nervous and anxious when the subject of religion came up because I wanted people to like me. I’m 26 now and I am still a little nervous about people knowing I’m agnostic.
Anyway, what I guess I’m trying to say is, my vote is to teach your children to be respectful of other people’s opinions, and to not stand for their own opinions being disrespected. I would not mention that other parents might not approve, because it will reinforce the idea that atheism/agnosticism is something to hide.
I also want to say what an awesome job you are doing as a parent. My parent’s acceptance and support of free thought is the probably the greatest gift I’ve been given.
November 10th, 2006 @ 6:09 am
Hi dudley,
“How are humans being classified as non-animals in Social Studies class?”
By teaching that animals have long been used to, say, work in the fields, regardless of their choice. Doing the same thing to humans is usually presented as wrong, thus making a distinction between animals and humans. The double message is that humans both are and are not animals.
“No one is being made to make ethical statements based on science in school.”
I don’t agree with that in all cases. I suspect that some would like ethical statements based on science to be made in schools. Within the context of this blog, I understand people to have been attempting to base ethical statements on science.
I agree that faith(s) can be discussed in school. I disagree that it should be taught. Perhaps this has changed, but when I was in school, slavery was presented as wrong. I think this is a faith-based teaching.
Do you see humans as animals? If yes, is it wrong to own animals as pets or use them for work against their obvious choice?
One of the themes on this blog that I’m interested in is: Assuming a purely materialistic universe, is there any way, based solely on the physical evidence that we can observe, to build a moral or ethical system that is not relative to the individual? I understand Noell to be saying yes, there is, and I disagree. If you haven’t done so already, you may want to check out Noell’s post: http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/08/02/evolutionary-psychology-and-materialism-as-a-world-view/ and my response, which is approx #12.
Thanks for the questions,
Peace,
Dan
November 11th, 2006 @ 7:02 am
Dan,
Humans are not being classified as non-animals in Social Studies class. Social Studies is not a class about biology — it’s actually a class about human societies. Where in the world are you getting all of these animals working in the field against their will? No class, science or non-science, teaches about the use of animals in the field against their “obvious choice” and then uses this as the reason for the ending of human slavery and the categorization of humans as non-animal. This is one of the most bizarre claims I have ever heard. Are you serious that this is your gripe against the public school system?
November 11th, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
[...] I’d like to respond to Dan, who has been in the midst of a conversation with Dudley on this blog. I am copying Dan’s last comment where he quotes Dudley, which I have put in italics, and then gives his response. If you struggle with the lack of context, you can see the entire conversation here. “How are humans being classified as non-animals in Social Studies class?†By teaching that animals have long been used to, say, work in the fields, regardless of their choice. Doing the same thing to humans is usually presented as wrong, thus making a distinction between animals and humans. The double message is that humans both are and are not animals. [...]
November 14th, 2006 @ 6:28 am
Hi dudley,
It looks like Noell has opened a new thread for this subject: http://www.agnosticmom.com/2006/11/11/humans-as-animals-and-ethics/#comments
I suggest we continue our discussion there.
Hope to see you there,
Peace,
Dan
December 3rd, 2006 @ 9:23 am
Hi there. Finding all this fascinating as we struggle to raise our children with values in a country that is profoundly Muslim. I can tell that the people who work for us are very nervous because they love our children and are terrified that they will go to hell since we are not Muslim. I think that being any religion is far more preferable than not having one, from a Muslim perspective. I am not sure that is true from a Christian perspective. We try to keep our non-beliefs relatively private because, frankly, I just don’t think that it serves anyone – they are not going to change their beliefs, nor are we going to change ours.
December 31st, 2006 @ 1:21 pm
Wow, I am so happy to find you guys! We are just starting to have these problems with our first grader son who is six and are new to “coming” out as atheist/agnostics – our six year old is dead set against God and anything to do with Religion. He is so curious about religion and is quick to ask his classmates what they believe in and in Michigan, most of the population is Christain (at least where we live) – so he is quite on the outside of things when he says God is not real; does not exist and he doesn’t give one hoot about him. He has been told he is going to Hell, people think he is bad and so on. It is so distressing. It also doesn’t help the situation when my whole extended family are born again Christains and feel quite the same way as my son’s classmates and have no problem letting us know this. When we are around them he tends to offer to say grace one minute and the next he will say, “there is no God.” We have been very open with how we feel, but I think the fact we are still getting used to turning away from our previous faiths and trying to get him to understand that people won’t like you for what you believe in is making it hard for him to fully comprehend and now he is just so confused. What do we do?
March 24th, 2009 @ 7:08 pm
Loved coming across your blog tonight. I am 49 years this year, and I have NEVER actually said out loud “I am an agnostic” until 2009. I have raised 4 children, three of whom were raised “in the church” but who have, through their own experience or by college experience/adult exposure, have decided to not be identified by what church, if any, might claim the as their “own.”
I was raised as a Roman Catholic, but have realized that if there is a GOD, then He/She is so great that my being not sure won’t have much impact on Her/Him. Hopefully, She/He or He/She will not want to punish me for not being so mainsteam by banishing me to hellfire for all eternity. I could not worship a God who would do so anyway, people.
Remember my 10 years of self-imposed celibacy, Lord!
I’m happy with being honest enough in my humanity to say “I just don’t know!”
Anyone else with me? JM