24 Comments »

1. Jason Dollar:
   November 4th, 2006 @ 11:01 am

   I have worked for a Christian apologetics organization that had warned of the dangers of the brand of theology that Haggard teaches. A good summary of this “Third Wave” theology can be found by scrolling down a bit on the following link.

   http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t00.html#thirdwave.

   This is not to say that I totally disagree with everything he taught. He certainly believes in the existence and death of Jesus and salvation being through the Son of God. There are a lot of connections between Christian who disagree on certain issues.

   I would say that high profile pastors like Haggard are not representative of the Christian Church as a whole. In fact, no one man or woman embodies the Christian system, and the truthfulness of that system cannot be judged based on the failures of high profile leaders. Just because a particular president might fail at executing the office (Nixon we’ll say) does not mean we should do away with the office.

   From a Christian perspective, Haggard needs our prayers and support and love, but given the nature of these accusations, and the possiblity of their truthfulness, I think he did the right thing by resigning his positions.

   It is at this time that believers kick their own when they are down, and thus show the world our worst side. Thus, I hope that many will step out in love (even tough love) for this broken man. As we all are just as broken as he.

2. Noell:
   November 4th, 2006 @ 12:56 pm

   Jason, I agree with your statement about high profile pastors not being representative of the whole. I hope you don’t take my posting as a criticism of Christianity, religion, or any such thing. In fact, this story would have held no interest for me if it were a different prominent pastor. In fact, I’d heard the story a few different times on talk radio and didn’t really care until I saw Haggard’s name in print and remembered how I knew him.

   In Dawkins’ documentary we pay a visit to Haggard and his church. It is shocking how arrogant Haggard seems; how rude he was. And the way he talked about his congregation made me think he had a god complex. In light of that only it is interesting to think how false this man may be.

   At the same time, I think it is far too early to believe the story of the prostitute. Until he provides evidence it is unfair to assume Haggard did what he said. A “temptation” to use meth says to me, though, that Haggard is no stranger to illicit drugs.

   I am less worried about Haggard and more concerned about his wife and children. I can only imagine the agony they must have been feeling in their car with the news reporters pulling out these deep dark secrets. I don’t know how the wife kept her composure.

   As for your last statement, Jason, that “we all are just as broken as he.” I am sorry, but I just don’t agree with this. We all compromise our own principles to some extent. We do not all compromise them to the extent that Haggard has admitted to, nor to the extent of the claims being brought against him. I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel broken.

3. Lisa:
   November 4th, 2006 @ 2:12 pm

   Hmmm, we all have some things that we might not be proud of, but at least we don’t stand at the podium and tell others how they ought to behave. There are certainly many Christians that I respect (Mother Theresa and many Quakers who put their beliefs into practice), but it was this hypocritical attitude of Christian leaders (specially philandering priests) that drove me to the view that Jesus would be appalled by Christianity.

4. Adam:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 12:34 am

   I think it is wrong to consider religion in any other context than an organizational system that provides benefits to its members. Membership is somewhat difficult to renounce due to the psychological weight that we place upon the moral system that we are taught when we are young, but many people still chose to do so. If you acknowledge that religion is no more and no less than this, it is not surprising how many of its leaders turn out to abuse their power. Like all ambitions people, they compete with others to rise to positions of higher power. Religion, like all things human is about power and safety.

5. Barbara:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 6:59 am

   I’m not a blogger, but I happened upon your site and had to comment and ask a question. I was raised in a Christian church and for most of my life been considered a Christian, but over the last couple of years, have found my self with lots of doubts and questions. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and exploring. Reading and exploring things I never had the courage to before. I’ve gotten over feeling like I’m an evil sinner or under the temptation of the devil, but I feel so alone. I know that if I come to the conclusion that what I have believed all my life simply is not true, and I “come out”, so to speak; I will lose pretty much every friend I have and probably a lot of family too. I was just wondering if that was your experience and how did you cope with that? Have you written a blog about your experience?

6. Jones:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 9:14 am

   Hi Barbara,
   I am really impressed and have lots of admiration for people like you. I can only imagine how much courage you must need to go through a self analysis of this kind when you are a grown up.
   Most of the atheists/agnostics I personally know have come to their conclusions at a relatively early age, after years of questioning and confrontation with their peers. Most of them were left free to choose and make their own decisions by their parents, some of them grew up in religious families some others didn’t.
   The fact that you have done so much thinking and you’ve come to your own conclusions after being raised in a religious family and society it means to me that you’re still open to new possibilities and are not narrow minded, which is a wonderful thing.
   What you are facing now is just a tough choice and you and only you know what to do. It doesnt happen just with religion but also in many other circumstances, all the time we question some very basic beliefs, feelings or socially accepted dogmas (divorce, sexuality, etc). It happened to me when I had to question my feelings for my parents because of domestic violence and decided to cut any kind of relations with them. I can tell you that the real friends will stay with you, some of them will never understand bu will accept your decision, some other won’t even care.
   And about those ones that will judge you and think you’re evil, are you sure you could ever call them friends? do they really deserve your friendship and loialty?
   Even if you might loose all of your friends, I wouldn’t care too much, unless you’re 110, you have plenty of time to get plenty of new friends.
   I think the important thing is to understand what’s more important for yourself, be coherent, transparent, sincere and open about how you feel (and therefore loose some of your friends or all of them but being in peace with yourself) or lie to yourself and your friends keeping your peace of mind and the appearance of a normal life (which is still a choice, i’m not judging here)
   Good luck and take it easy!

7. Prairie Kittin:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 10:08 am

   Haggard just admitted on CNN that he was guilty of sexual immorality.

8. Lisa:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 10:13 am

   Hi Barbara, you may discover some of your friends and family have similar thoughts. I found a whole new relationship/friendship with a cousin who it turns out is also freethinker. It is fantastic and I now feel closer to her than I ever had. There are some people that I feel are too closed minded to disclose myself to, but I wouldn’t really want to share any kind of personal information with them anyway. You are definitely not alone out there. There are lots of people who share your questioning of long held beliefs. Losing faith is a bit like a death as you give up cherished ideas, but then you commit yourself to the more nobler ideas you hold. You might help out the sick, the poor, the underdogs of the world in a more meaningful way, as now you will realize that it really is a desparate situation. There is no higher power that will ease their suffering. But you can. The movie Toy Story was a great atheists tale. Buzz Lightyear was convinced that a Commander out-there would rescue him from planet earth. Woody kept telling him that there was no Star Command. Buzz held tight to his beliefs but then finally had to give up, not because of Woody but because of his own questioning. He sinks into despair and doesn’t seem to have any of his former powers. All is bleak … and he even plays Mrs. Nesbitt at a tea-party. But then he discovers that there is something he can do. He can make a little boy very happy. We do have to give up on a star commander, but we can discover that we still have goodness and strength within ourselves and we can use this goodness and strength to make this a better world for everyone or at least for someone special to us.

9. Leah:
   November 5th, 2006 @ 11:02 am

   I just found this site this morning after telling my husband how sick I was of never connecting with women from my conservative neighborhood. I’m glad to see that there is no hate or judgment here, only intelligent conversation. I’m also glad to see there is at least 1 Christian opinion here (Jason) to give some balance. I was raised as an evangelical Christian and it was only much later in life that I came to the conclusion that I didn’t believe any of it. It is a heart wrenching decision and it does isolate you. I identify with Barbara to an extent, although most of my family is pretty open minded. My husband is Catholic and his family is from the Middle East. I have yet to meet an atheist from his country, although I’m sure they exist. Our children are being raised with some balance. I am much like Agnostic mom and talk to them about religion by explaining to them what they believe and how they think etc. My 9 year old is very spiritual. Just last night he was handed one of those Christian brochures on the street. He read the whole thing out loud in the car and declared that he wanted to post it on his bedroom door. We go to church occasionally (twice a year) so both of them have been exposed to that. However, I haven’t met a kid yet that was moved by a Catholic mass. It’s sooooo boring. Their belief in god is up to them in the end. I think it is a personal decision. I hope they never get caught up in any religious movement, but again, that is up to them. I will be reading this blog with much interest, especially around the issues with children and school. This is a very troubling topic to me.

10. Lisa:
    November 5th, 2006 @ 12:15 pm

    Thanks Prarie Kitten. Here’s a link to the story http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/05/haggard.allegations/index.html

    You know, I actually respect him for coming clean. Much more than I ever could have respected him for founding his 14,000 member church. I hope that this is a wake-up call to many that you should question authority and not assume that what they say is what they do.

11. Olga:
    November 5th, 2006 @ 12:51 pm

    I saw Ted Haggard for the first time in the Dawkins’ documentary. I also got an impression of him as a very arrogant man. He is the one who chased away Dawkins’ film crew for “calling his children “animals”!” – hinting at Professor’s field of expertise (evolution).

    I saw Haggard again in the “Jesus Camp” movie. He was making faces, pointing his finger into the camera, making statements like “Life is great!”. And what’s up with his lips when talks? Creepy character – that’s my conclusion.

    While Haggard “is not a representative of the Christian Church as a whole”, and “we all are just as broken as he”, quoting Jason Dollar, he nevertheless is a more powerful man than most of us. He was considered instrumental in Bush’ 2004 elections and a key figure in lobbying for Supreme court judges nominations. He is the person who calls President Bush every Monday! (until last week, I guess)

    So, when I heard the news on Thursday and then the outcome, I felt like celebrating. Since I am not a religious person, I think it’s OK to feel GOOD when BAD people get what they deserve!

12. Barbara:
    November 5th, 2006 @ 5:38 pm

    Thanks Lisa for your encouragement. I hope you are right about others in my family that may feel the same way. I realize though that I will lose a huge community of support once I come clean about what I believe and don’t believe, but I will just have to work on building a new network of friends. Since I understand what Christians believe, I know how it is going to devastate my friends to think I am going to go to hell unless I come back to “the truth.” I’m going to hate to hurt them like that, but eventually I am going to have to be honest with them.

    I am already looking at life in a more positive way and I feel relieved to be able to put my thoughts into words. I don’t feel so isolated now that I see others are going through and have gone through the same thing. I do wish my children had, had the opportunity to be raised in a freer environment, but I will do my best to encourage them to be free thinkers from now on.

13. Ron:
    November 5th, 2006 @ 9:21 pm

    I hope Haggard’s Bush connections get highlighted tomorrow, but somehow I don’t think they will. I have no sympathy for religious leaders shown to be hypocrites – and there is never any shortage of them.

    Barbara – I applaud your acceptance objective reality. There may be people who disapprove – but you’ll find many others that do not. I’m confident that you are riding a wave that will continue to gain momentum and acceptance. When children develop skills of reasoning, and the information age can do no harm in this regard, the future will get brighter and brighter.

    My favorite book on choosing reason and abandoning superstition is “The Demon Haunted World” by Carl Sagan – - after reading that, I was able to finally cut the cord with my guilty pleasure of feeling that supernatural underpinnings left me out of control and without personal responsibility for my life.
    This list is one of my only real ‘support group’ for abandoning belief in a literal god – usually its enough for me – I’m sure you will find it a comfort too.

14. Gregg100:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 12:12 am

    Since I have been dealing with being the lone Atheist among my friends and relatives for many years (after a rather staunch upbringing in the Church of England, also known as the Episcopal Church) I would like to offer a few suggestions to those of you who are now deciding to react to those feelings of uncertainty and doubt.

    Spend some time thinking about just what it is you do and don’t believe. This is not a topic for discussion with others. It is personal time with yourself and the time is characterized with honesty and critical thinking. See if you can identify a pattern. You may accept many of the passages in the Bible as historically correct and entirely believable but draw the line at “miracles” and things that seem to go against you views of the laws of Nature. You may believe that a person named Jesus existed or you may not. It takes a little time to get some of these things sorted out in your own mind. There is little reason to take “heat” from your friends when you may find that you still have many beliefs in common.

    Do not try to sell/defend your position. It is a favorite strategy, intentional or not, of religious people to draw you into discussions in which you are on the defensive. Sincerely accommodate your friend’s beliefs and ask for the same consideration. They are every bit as valid as yours. It is just that your genetics and experience have tilted you one way and they another. Neither side can “win” what ever that means.

    Accentuate the positive. That is, have an attitude that projects less “anti theism” and more “pro philosophical naturalism” and supports activities that

    promote a wider understanding of the natural world as revealed by science,

    promote a unity of the human species and promote projects that enhance that unification as opposed to dividing it up as religions and nationalism tend to do,

    promote an understanding of the human role as a cooperative, destructive and constructive member of the biosphere,

    promote the development of standards of ethics based on secular foundations.
    Finally remember that actions speak louder than words. Keep your views to yourself and be visible/judged through your actions. There will be times when your views will go on display but they don’t have to be in neon signs.

    For what it is worth …

15. AnneA:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 8:00 am

    Barbara,
    Welcome! Although I was not brought up with any religion, I kind of believed what I’d heard throughout my life about God and Jesus etc, but always with a skeptical eye. Now, in my 40′s I’ve really started thinking more about it all and what I truly believe (a recent college Philosophy class really put it into perspective for me). It’s been a slow, tentative process of “coming out” to my friends and family, but so far, it hasn’t been bad at all.
    I did have one very good friend ask me to be her child’s godmother last year, which was strange since she knew full well that I was 100% non-religious. (Needless to say, that never ended up happening). And, I had a long conversation recently with another friend about religion and she was very interested in my point of view. I don’t think she every truly thought about her beliefs either. It was a connection we made that previously didn’t exist.
    So, don’t worry, some of your friends will understand, others won’t. I believe the ones who won’t will do so out of their own fears and doubts about what they believe. It can’t be easy to hold on to Christian beliefs nowadays.
    I also felt alone for a while, but now, there are so many resources on the internet (this was the first I found) that I was never aware of and now I KNOW I’m definitely not alone in my beliefs (or lack thereof!)

16. Barbara:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 9:52 am

    Jones:

    I missed your comment before and thank you. It meant a lot to me what you said. You are right that the friends that would reject me aren’t friends anyway and I’m not nearly 110 so I will make new friends. It’s just stepping out of that comfort zone that is difficult. My husband is not on the same page as me, but he is trying to be supportive. I worry what will happen to us.

    Greg100, thanks for reminding me that I don’t need to be talking with anyone while I muddle through what I believe and don’t believe. That is very good advice, which I will take. In fact, you had a lot of good rational advice.

    AnneA, you sound so positive and that gives me courage. I am a little different in that I have been a very visible and vocal Evangelical Christian; leading women’s Bible studies, etc. I’m hoping that what I decide isn’t as important to other people as I think it is. The last thing I want to do is hurt people, but like Jones said, I can have peace and perhaps lose friends or keep friends and have no peace within. I’m tired of having the “appearance” of a normal life.

17. AnneA:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 11:38 am

    Barbara,
    Just one last thought… I don’t think changing what you think and how you feel is going to hurt other people. If it does, then that’s not your fault. The only person you hurt is yourself when you aren’t true to who you are and what you believe.

    Again, welcome here and good luck on your new path!

18. Zoe:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 2:41 pm

    Hi all,

    Barabara, I’ve walked away from it. Visible, vocal as you say…and well respected in our community & beyond.

    Like you, I didn’t, don’t want to hurt people. The thing is, it’s invevitable that some will be hurt & some will be offended by strong changes in our beliefs.

    Here’s a quote that may be helpful in nurturing all that lies within.

    “To be ourselves causes us to be exiled by many others, and yet to comply with what others want causes us to be exiled from ourselves.” – Clarissa Pinkola Estes

19. Terry S.:
    November 6th, 2006 @ 9:48 pm

    I am not particularly disposed to soft sell Haggard’s indiscretions. While I know that the allegations by the male prostitute are far from proven, given Haggard’s position, what he HAS admitted to, and what would appear to be his concomitant hypocrisy, it’s difficult not to take some pleasure in his fall from grace. But, as I note at my place, my bet is that Haggard will rise again, all humble and forgiven and likely richer than ever. It is likely that he has spin doctors busily working on his comeback as I write. I’m sure this is difficult for his family. But Haggard’s over-large ego and drive to make big bucks, trump his family’s interest. They will likely have to hang on for dear life through this rough ride, come what may.

    Keep in mind. If Haggard is guilty of the allegations, and he denies it. He is a liar. Should such a person be in a position to preach morality to anyone?

    TLS

20. Barbara:
    November 7th, 2006 @ 10:46 am

    Zoe:
    How did you deal with the pressure that was put on you? Did you lose friends? Do you have a husband and children and if you do how did that all work out and how long did it take you to make your decision, etc. I have a million questions. Would you mind answering some of them? By the way, thank you for the quote. I wrote in in my journal for encouragement to be strong.

21. Zoe:
    November 9th, 2006 @ 2:45 pm

    Hey Barbara,

    I couldn’t get back into Noell’s blog until just now! Troubles again Noell?

    I do some blogging about it Barbara (click on my name Zoe here in Noelle’s comments & it will take you to my blog…but I’m not sure I can blog fast enough to answer all your questions.

    I’ve never been good at being sequential in telling the story. I could try a new project on my blog of answering your questions there & maybe you could feel free to join in the discussion and ask those other million questions? *big grin*

22. Terry S.:
    November 9th, 2006 @ 3:06 pm

    Noell,

    You disappeared into the ether once again. It is good that you latched onto the skyhook which brought you back to us again before your were lost in the abyss. Maybe you should post some lookouts to ward of pending attacks. Keep it low tech, though. Use smoke signals.

    By the way, congrats to Arizonans who voted down the anti-gay marriage ammendment. Whoda thunk it?

    TLS

23. Jones:
    November 10th, 2006 @ 8:21 am

    Barbara,
    I think Gregg100 is spot on. You dont need to be on the front line, of course if you were a very vocal christian that is not going to be very easy but if you think about it, the religious dimension of life and your beliefs play a big part in your life only if you let them do so. There is really no need for it and I’m sure your husband will realize that love, care, being a good mum/wife and live righteous life have nothing to do with religion. He probably will realize that you’re a better person, just because you’re not afflicted by remorse and guilt anymore.
    When I said “take it easy” i just meant that; it’s going to be fine, dont try to change everything in one day, you don’t need to go out and shout it loud to everyone, it will just happen casually on conversations if you want it to happen and it needs to be as natural as it can be, dont be scared to hurt anyone, coz eventually that would be their problem. You could see it from the other side, are they not hurting you when they make you feel weird for something you believe in (or not believe in)?

24. Barbara:
    November 10th, 2006 @ 8:46 am

    Thanks Jones, wise words. I was just telling my husband this morning, that since I started questioning my long held religious beliefs and rethinking fundamental religion, I find myself becoming more compassionate and caring toward others. Instead of having to “share the truth” with them, I just get to simply care for them. He says that doesn’t make sense and that how could I care more without Christ being my motivation and I didn’t have an answer for him. I hoping that he will see, as you said, that being a good person and truly caring about human suffering, has nothing to do with religion.

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