14 Comments »

1. Jason:
   February 6th, 2007 @ 10:34 am

   I especially empathize with your last paragraph–how the relationships we hold dearest are the ones that keep us chained through our own desire to not rock the boat, and to keep those relationships as pristine as possible. Everyone has differing people with differing backgrounds and ideas about “what should be,”but in a society such as ours which values religious freedom, telling our loved ones we like the freedom in NON-religion–that’s a huge pill for some friends and family to swallow…

   I actually took LaSahwn’s statement about “immersing yourself in religion” as a hint that, to this person, atheism is a religion. Maybe I’m wrong–it’s amazing how one sentenec can be intrepreted in so many ways, but, LaShawn, if it is true that you meant that atheism seems like a religion to you, how so? Can you post examples or correlations you see between the practices of the faithful and those of the faithless?

2. casey kochmer:
   February 6th, 2007 @ 12:07 pm

   Considering religion is part of society, no one can be free from its influence.

   Considering some questions never can have absolute answers, faith based systems will exist to fill the gap.

   human nature is human nature.

   I liked your line:
   >Because my past religion was so all-consuming I was lost and scared

   We all have an “empty space” which is the meaning of life: i.e. how to fill in the activities of our exploration of living…

   So many answers and systems of belief to help people along to do this. and it’s quite hard to take the time to truly be oneself. So devices like religion, TV, consumerism, political propaganda and other spiritual saw dust pyramid schemes will always exist to fill and take advantage to “aid” people fill in their empty spaces of life.

   just ramblin and rantin along: but these are the thoughts that come to mind after reading your posting.

   Peace in the journeys…

3. Lisa:
   February 6th, 2007 @ 5:28 pm

   I agree, I think to some people atheism can be similar to religious behavior. To others, it is not.

   In my experiences, people who have been exposed to religion, people who have left a church tend to identify atheism in a religious context. They will more quickly categorize themselves, and tend to immerse themselves in the subject. I admit, I am drawing from my personal experience. I went to a Christian private school and sometimes I miss the social aspect of church. I tend to seek out atheist groups of people to meet with and do “church like” activities with.

   My husband, on the other hand, was not ever a church-goer and he is really, truly, without religion. He does not call himself an atheist, hasn’t studied religion in any context, and doesn’t really care to. It really never crosses his mind, he just says “I don’t go to church”.

   I think he sometimes thinks I’m crazy because I stress about finding my place in the world, and a lot of that is probably because I’m trying to fit it into a religious or spiritual context, but I don’t believe in a god. I believe that is really the only difference between atheists and religious people. Their lives may be similar in action, but are different in intent, the religious live their lives in the name of their god. Some atheists live their life in the name of science, or atheism, or something. Some just live, and don’t need a definition of what they are living for.

4. Terra:
   February 6th, 2007 @ 5:49 pm

   Noell,

   I think you did a fantastic job answering the questions posed to you and I appreciate this blog because it’s usually devoid of all the mud slinging that most of us love to partake in (some more often than others.) I find people having open and honest exchange of ideas here and that’s refreshing when so many of the sites I read are just, “I’m an atheist, effing deal with it!” or “God is almighty and you will burn in hell!”

   Anyhow, having said that, I want to comment on what LaShawn asked you about being truly free of religion. Casey mentioned many interpretations of a comment and I agree, in that when I read LaShawns questions, it sounded like he/she was saying, “Are you really free because it looks like you are *choosing* to be immersed in religion?” I think you addressed it by saying (if I may sum it up…) “Until religion leaves us alone, no, we aren’t free.” The point being, we aren’t choosing to be involved with religion because we secretly still “need” it. We are involved with religion because in the current climate, we can hardly be otherwise. (Sidenote: do you ever dream of a world where you are truly free of religion-I do….)

   LaShawn mentioned that he/she doesn’t like to be labeled when it comes to beliefs, but I wonder if that is because he/she is scared of what people might say/do? I know I am.

   It was asked, “Is it worth the effort?” I believe the answer is yes, for two reasons. 1) so that other people can feel more comfortable pursuing humanist values and living a life as free from religion as possible and 2)what you pointed out, Noell; that because we are good, decent people, it is important to point that out so that we can start to wash away this myth that atheists are bloodthirsty barbarians devoid of any social or moral responsibility.

5. Gregg100:
   February 6th, 2007 @ 8:46 pm

   I think LaSahawn is to be commended for her insightful observations. It is certainly true that Agnostic Mom as well as the majority of us is still living under the heavy influence of religion. We tend to live near the norms of the culture of our respective societies. The Western culture is the result of millennia of evolved ethical standards that have been dominated by religions. At present, there is no way to avoid the influence of religion. However, since the Age of Enlightenment began in the sixteenth century, science has started to emerge as a major counterbalance to religion. Unfortunately the influence of science on moral/ethical standards remains in its infancy. We are not yet to the point where it can be claimed that there is a quantitative, scientifically justifiable reason to “refrain from shoplifting” to quote Agnostic Mom. Part of the reason is that ethics and morality have remained the exclusive purview of the philosophers and churches as opposed to the (social?)scientists. But there are bits and pieces of mortar starting to crumble from the cracks in the wall.
   There are distinct advantages to being able to think and function in a dogma-free environment. Agnostic Mom mentioned some very day-to-day benefits. On a larger scale, consider the example of China’s increasing lead over the Western world in the research, development and application of stem cell-based medical advances because they are not encumbered with the religious baggage so prevalent in the West. There are many other examples but you get the idea. It is not a case of being antireligion, as LaShawn pointed out as being a rather negative and dominant theme of so many atheists, but rather it is a case of taking advantage of the freedom to explore and develop new and exciting alternatives that can benefit people because they are based on evidence rather than revelation.

6. Simon:
   February 9th, 2007 @ 7:39 am

   Why do atheists feel the need to talk about religion? Because we feel uncomfortable living in a world dominated by wishful thinking people. perhaps.

7. Martin:
   February 11th, 2007 @ 6:52 pm

   (Yes, the orginal Martin)

   It is a good question, “Are you really free?”. Actually it can be interpreted and responded to in a number of ways.

   The first response is that, since religion is so embedded in society, especially in the more fundamentalist societies like the U.S. and many Muslim countries, no, we are not free of religion. We are also not free of religion when religious people assert that us acting like their religion suggests we should act makes us somehow a follower of their religion with serious denial issues. People can arrive at the same behaviours and morals for very different reasons. For example, most mainstream religions include the lesson to treat others as you would be treated, but we would not say a zoroastran following this lesson is really a christian (or a whatever). Non religious people can act with what we would consider good moral values for very different reasons than a, for example, christian. Indeed, there are many who would argue that the secularist who treats others well because it is just right is working from a higher moral plane than a religious person who acts a certain way because a supernatural being will see their bad ways and deny them rewards or provide punishment at some later date, usually after death.

   As this blog so eloquently shows, many of us who were raised in a certain religion have difficulty when our reasoning is at odds with the things we were taught at an early age. The harshly critical would say this is normal: the teaching of religion is nothing more than brainwashing of the most insidious kind. Those more benevolent in perspective would simply acknowledge the difficulty in finding a new perspective. Either way, the training that began the second we were born constantly reaches out to us and attempts to draw us back. For myself, I welcome this: as a rationalist (I do not like the term atheist–I like to define myself by what I am, not by what I am not) I value the process of questioning and reasoning above all things and the opportunity to test the teaaching of a religious youth against the sum of my experience can only be a good thing–no matter what the outcome.

   Lastly, and this is possibly where I have the most problem with the question (assuming this is how it was meant), is that the question means that since I am no longer a believer, I must be lost or damned or somehow chained to some anvil of delusion–I’m in a prison of my ignorance. If this is the case, I must say that it is only since I made the break with the chains of dogma and interpret the world by what I actually experience everyday that I am free.

   If your response is like most religious people I have this discussion with, you’ll probably be thinking right now how deluded I am. This worries me not. As others have said here, mine is not to convert anyone else to what I think.

   I’ll only become assertive about what I think when someone enforces their religious views upon me, something that happens too often unfortunately and which brings us back to the original meaning of the question–no, I’m not really free of religion–wish as I might.

8. Juno Walker:
   February 12th, 2007 @ 4:29 am

   I am a former born-again Christian who is now an atheist and secular humanist but who nonetheless has what can only be called ‘religious feelings’. I’ve been struggling somewhat to put them into the context of my naturalistic worldview.

   I’ve written two posts over at my blog about the concept of ‘religious naturalism’ or a ‘naturalistic spirituality’. The first one is called The Mother of All Oxymorons? and the second one is called Suspiria de Profundis.

   In regard to ethics/morality, I think it’s been established that atheists and religious believers share very similar ideas and modes of behavior; though our shared morality does not come from any supernatural god or holy book. The Philosopher Julian Baggini has a good article on why that is. Here’s the link.

   Best,
   Juno

9. LaShawn:
   February 12th, 2007 @ 7:59 pm

   First I must say that I was really excited to see the responses to my questions At first I was worried that they would go unnoticed since I had asked them in a post that was several entries back. I don’t have any new questions to offer, but I do want to clarify a few things from my original post, and answer some that others have raised.

   I guess I should start out by apologizing to Noell for my use of the word “immersed,” because it eluded to something more drastic than I had initially intended. What I was trying to hint towards is that there seems to be an undeniable involvement of religion in the lives of many who claim to be atheist. To address Jason’s question, no I do not believe that atheism is a type of a religion. However, I couldn’t deny or explain the sense that atheism still had a connection and relationship to it. This holds true particularly of the atheists I have encountered here in the United States. What your responses have revealed to me though are the flaws and misconceptions I had of the source of this connection. What I have gathered is this:

   It is not the case that those who were once religious and later became Atheists still embrace religion, but that it is still being imposed on them.

   What helped bring this to light and cleared up the misconception for me was Noell’s response as to whether or not she was actually free from religion. I realized that religion plays a role in some of the activities she participates in, not because she chooses it to be, but rather as a result of outside pressure to give in to religious conformity. It seems that she is sort of defending her reason (and right) to not give in to such things, and does so in a non-apologetic way. Which, I might add I think is great. No one should have to apologize, not even to their family, for simply thinking and rationalizing differently.

   Also, to address something that Lisa said:

   “I miss the social aspect of church. I tend to seek out atheist groups of people to meet with and do “church like” activities with.”

   I think that this is a good example of what I was trying to refer to as “religious behavior”. Again, as a result of your responses, this is another misconception I believe I had due to what appeared to be an atheist’s desire to embrace certain aspects of religion. What I now believe is that these are not religious wants/desires, but rather humanistic ones that religious attributes have been imposed upon. To answer Noell’s question:

   “..if you do not see a significant difference between religious people and avowed atheist/agnostics, then doesn’t this just show religion to be unnecessary?”

   I would have to agree, and say yes. It does seem to show that religion is unnecessary to engage in activities as mentioned above. I believe that the same misconceptions I had are what lead many to believe that atheists are still involved in religious activity. I suppose that until others realize that religion isn’t necessary to enjoy these kinds things, it will always be a false presumption.

   Finally, to Terra:

   The reason I don’t like to be labeled when it comes to religion is not out of fear, but as you can see, because my beliefs are constantly changing and evolving. I don’t think that I accurately know where I stand right now during this period in my life. So I’d like to not choose any sides, and enjoy this time of growth and learning that I’m in

   If I missed anything I apologize, and I’m also aware that I’m not exactly the greatest at explaining myself, or my observations. I’d like to thank everyone though who gave their input! Communities of open-minded people like this are great, and I’m glad to have had the chance to be a part of it.

10. Martin:
    February 12th, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

    Juno. Thanks for the link to the great article outlining how rationalists and the religious can act the same way for very different reasons…or, at least, without the rationalists admitting they are secretly religious. It sums it all up quite nicely and I’ll use it for future reference.

    Thanks too for the other, more personal and introspective links. Good food for thought.

11. C. L. Hanson:
    February 13th, 2007 @ 2:55 am

    As another example of how the “practice of atheism” varies widely from person to person:

    In my case, even though I’ve written in my masthead that I’m an exmormon atheist, I hardly ever talk about atheism on my blog. And when I talk about Mormonism on my blog, it’s generally either talking about how people of different worldviews can get along and/or discussing Mormon literature (which is this crazy new hobby I’ve taken up since I’ve been blogging…).

    Speaking of Mormon literature, I mentioned your contribution to Parenting Beyond Belief in my post about supporting the Mormon arts since you’re a “cultural Mormon.”

    Actually, I should probably get a copy of that book and read it since — as I’ve mentioned here before — we haven’t told our kids anything about religion at all. As far as I know, they don’t know about gods or praying or anything like that. We haven’t gone out of our way to teach them about science either, but whenever they take an interest in science-related subjects, we encourage them and get relevant materials for them such as books about sharks, whales, dolphins, and the corresponding nature documentaries.

    One big difference in my case though is the fact that we’re raising our kids in France (which statistically has among the highest proportion of atheists of almost any country in the world). So there’s really not this idea that something is missing if you don’t practice religion. To me it’s hard to understand why people would think that you need religion in your life and that if you don’t have it that you’d need to replace it with something. Frankly religion is not a part of my life, and I don’t miss it.

12. Martin:
    February 13th, 2007 @ 2:51 pm

    “So I’d like to not choose any sides, and enjoy this time of growth and learning that I’m in”.

    Wow! Powerful words. Good for you. I always push those with whom I engage in this sort of debate towards words like “think”, “analyse” and “examine”. And I ask them to work through the process.

    In my rationalist stance, which holds high the process of questioning my beliefs against the sum of my experience, I’m often critiqued because people assume it is an angry critical stance that just attacks things without thinking (much like the way we attacked orthodixy as teenagers). It is not the case; reflection is a slow and methodical process.

    Thank you for giving me one more word to use iwhen asking others to consider a rationalist perspective: “enjoy”.

13. colie:
    March 21st, 2008 @ 10:54 am

    my name is colie, im a 23 yr old college student and mother. i think i should add that im visiting my family in tx and they dont have word, so forgive my spelling.
    i ran across your blog tring to find a quote for myspace ‘religion is for people scared of going to hell, spirituality is for people who have been there’.
    i am not ‘religious’. when i think about the implications of the term, i am disguisted. i love God with everything i have, but i dont love the religion most think of when they discuss the subject.
    i have no faith in main stream society, and little in the main stream church. i feel that it is worse for a ‘christian’ to claim christ and then do all kinds of stupid stuff….i dont believe in the telamarketers on tv sayin if you sow a 100 dollars youll get it 10 fold….i dont watch ‘preachers’ on t.v.
    i feel a knot in the pit of my stomach (half pity and half anger, God forgive me) when people sit in the pews expecting a blessing from God (spirit or what not, somthing that gives THEM….a glimpse into the future, and i do it to and i hate that about myself). people sit there, and you can see them dying mentally and spiritually…its sad, but my definitation of spirituality is hard on some people.
    now i should prolly give that definitation.
    spirituality to me, first and fore most, is self recognitation. i allow God and mentors (someday a husband) to help me fix ‘my quirks’ the little things i fix in me, i can then turn and help guide. i was a drug addict, im clean now and can offer help for drug addicts, i was a cutter and can explain to someone why they are doing it.
    when ever i want to see the face of God (not really cause you cant, i cant explain it) i ask for it. whenever i want to hear his voice, i shut up and listen.
    when i was a teenager i was confused and angry….very angry. God was a waste of time. so when i decided to get right with him, i decided if i was going to do this it would be right, i did not want anymore games
    i think being agnostic is a religion in and of itself. no person on this earth is without ‘religion’. we have beliefs, regardless of where they came from, hopes and theories. a ‘theory’ is a ‘religion’ but the difference between religion and spirituality is that religion is the ceremony where as spirituality is the reason for the ceremony.
    thanks for letting me share…..if you dont mind contact me on myspace or email me….mwatson2@nwacc.edu (type that into the myspace search thing).

14. Laura:
    April 25th, 2008 @ 1:48 pm

    Thank you so much! Leaving religion was very hard for me. It left me without an identity. I am so happy to find your site and know there is someone out there who also wishes to be a good moral person and mother while rejecting the dogma of my former life. I feel a sort of replacement of the connections to others religion once held for me that I thought I had lost forever. Thank you, I will visit the site often!

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